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PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to Raspberry Pi board

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Re: PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to Raspberry Pi board

#101

Post by hlandau »

OJFord wrote: post #11

I honestly didn't realise the Raspberry Pi isn't open source. Why isn't it? The Foundation's charitable objective is education, so sure, it's not necessary , but there really seems to be no reason for it to be closed - I suppose it's just 'closed by default'?

rpi is one of the most closed SBCs there is. Even basic materials necessary to write OSes and drivers for the device, namely datasheets and register manuals for the SoC have never been published. Unlike every other SBC I'm aware of they don't even publish full schematics. The "schematics" on their website are abridged (try and find the USB ports on them).

Arguments that Broadcom is forcing their hand on this simply don't add up. It's not Broadcom that's stopping them from publishing even basic schematics of the board; that was their decision. Sure, they'd never be able to open the chip itself, but nobody is particularly asking them to (it's not like people have fabs in their garages).

Moreover it's pretty clear at this point that Broadcom is making SoCs custom-order for rpi at this point; see their original announcement on the rpi4, which makes it quite clear they were involved in the design process. Based on what I know about Broadcom's MO, it's simply not plausible that with that amount of money on the table, release of datasheets and register manuals couldn't be negotiated; it seems clear it's not a priority for rpi.org.

And as mentioned, rpi boards include vendor-lockin DRM in their binary blob boot firmware designed to prevent people from using third-party camera boards.

Not only is this unacceptable in itself, it also means rpi is actively depending on this boot firmware remaining closed, else people could easily remove this antifeature. People have been hoping for years that the firmware blobs required to boot the boards will eventually be opened, and pointed to some vague noises in this direction which were made by rpi.org years ago, but the fact that they're now relying on the fact of it being closed to enforce DRM causes me to find this increasingly unlikely.

Re: PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to Raspberry Pi board

#102

Post by filterfish »

chaosharmonic wrote: post #91
simcop2387 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still a decent start, and I'm hoping future versions will begin open sourcing the rest of the chip core like the memory controller. It'd be nice to have a good DDR IP core for things like this. EDIT: Removed a bit of the comment from a misunderstanding from reading the article

Isn't Alibaba also in the process of open-sourcing the XT910 design?

It would seem so: https://www.theregister.com/2019/07/27/alibaba_risc_v_chip/

Re: PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to Raspberry Pi board

#103

Post by monocasa »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #34

Unfortunately not purely based on Free and Open Source software: > Exceptons (sic): foundry related IPs and high-speed commercial interface, but gradually reduce close source (sic) usage over time Wonder what the FSF will make of it. They've long lamented that Raspberry Pi depends on non-Free software. https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/single-board-computers

That's talking about the HDL, not the software.

Re: PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to Raspberry Pi board

#104

Post by trasz »

ekianjo wrote: post #51
OJFord wrote: post #11

I honestly didn't realise the Raspberry Pi isn't open source. Why isn't it? The Foundation's charitable objective is education, so sure, it's not necessary , but there really seems to be no reason for it to be closed - I suppose it's just 'closed by default'?

Broadcom SoC is probably protected by a bunch of patents and/or trade secrets, which makes it impractical to open source. For example the whole boot process is a black box, which is why you have to use Raspbian and not regular Debian.

Not sure about Debian, but stock FreeBSD boots just fine.

Re: PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to Raspberry Pi board

#105

Post by avian »

hlandau wrote: post #101
OJFord wrote: post #11

I honestly didn't realise the Raspberry Pi isn't open source. Why isn't it? The Foundation's charitable objective is education, so sure, it's not necessary , but there really seems to be no reason for it to be closed - I suppose it's just 'closed by default'?

rpi is one of the most closed SBCs there is. Even basic materials necessary to write OSes and drivers for the device, namely datasheets and register manuals for the SoC have never been published. Unlike every other SBC I'm aware of they don't even publish full schematics. The "schematics" on their website are abridged (try and find the USB ports on them). Arguments that Broadcom is forcing their hand on this simply d…

> Arguments that Broadcom is forcing their hand on this simply don't add up.

I have worked with much more mundane integrated circuits where the manufacturer required you to sign an NDA before getting any kind of design support from them. One of the terms of the NDA was not publishing the schematic of the device using their product. I don't see why Broadcom wouldn't do something similar for their SoCs.

Re: PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to Raspberry Pi board

#106

Post by prox »

throwaway4good wrote: post #97
bydo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Image in the article says TSMC 28nm. https://www.cnx-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Pico...

That the US has gotten TSMC to boycot Huawei is quite recent. The deal for this was probably done before the latest sanctions. TSMC has massive economies of scale and are just very hard for alternatives to compete with.

Do you have an overview or link how that has come to be by any chance?

Re: PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to Raspberry Pi board

#107

Post by rcarmo »

I like the idea of going multi-core from the start. The Pi Zero W is massively under-powered when compared to its siblings, but IMHO suffers a lot more from being single-core than from any other constraint.

(Which is why I use the 3A+ for most of my stuff, really. Four cores and full-size HDMI and USB are very useful indeed.)

Re: PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to Raspberry Pi board

#108

Post by throwaway4good »

prox wrote: post #106
throwaway4good wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the US has gotten TSMC to boycot Huawei is quite recent. The deal for this was probably done before the latest sanctions. TSMC has massive economies of scale and are just very hard for alternatives to compete with.

Do you have an overview or link how that has come to be by any chance?

I am sorry I don't but the fab industry with its billion-dollar machines that pops out chips at a marginal cost of a dollar a piece should be a textbook example of a natural monopoly.

Re: PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to Raspberry Pi board

#109

Post by throwaway4good »

bydo wrote: post #77
monocasa wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we know the foundry? I like your idea because I could see the Chinese government doing this to help prop up SMIC too. The RPi4 isn't any smaller than 16nm, and SMIC needs 14nm customers. Shoot for the 500MHz target listed, which is achievable with Victorian era style over engineering. Next sell those more or less at cost after the government footed the bill for initial capital (probably paying back .gov.cn first).…

Image in the article says TSMC 28nm. https://www.cnx-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Pico...

Apparantly we are in for another major escalation of the chip wars:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-smic-exclusive/...

Exclusive: Trump administration weighs blacklisting China's chipmaker SMIC

Re: PicoRio Linux RISC-V SBC is an open-source alternative to Raspberry Pi board

#110

Post by snvzz »

monocasa wrote: post #82
snvzz wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>with a PowerVR off to the side that you can just ignore if you want. The problem is that I can't, and most people who care about freedom and thus could be interested in a slower, more expensive board... can't either.

Of course you can, just ignore it, and pretend it isn't there. Don't even load its drivers. Because of dark silicon, you won't be able to fully light up the chip anyway. Use the GPU being off to clock other parts faster if you want. You still get an unaccelerated framebuffer if it has the same arch as every other chip I've seen with a PowerVR for the past twenty years (Dreamcast, BeagleBoard, iPhones, PSP Vita, the M…

>Because of dark silicon, you won't be able to fully light up the chip anyway.

If it's a separate chip, that's better, because I can cut power to it, or outright desolder it.

Still, I'd be uncomfortable having paid for a chip I did not want. Much like being forced to pay for Windows when buying a laptop to run netbsd on.

My point, if you missed it, is that this is not the sort of purchasing experience those who'll pay extra coin for a board with a slower chip that's also less power efficient just because it's more open would actually desire. And thus, it is not sensible to include such a chip.

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