Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#101

Post by rndmze » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

finger crossed.

Fortnite is not really the hill I have seen this battle take place. For example Apple also rejected the satirical app of a Pulitzer winning journalist (it does not make their app good but suggests that the content was probably not just a fart joke).

Still, people should be able to install whatever they want on their phones, without Apple playing walled garden.

It is not good for devs getting squeezed by the platform owners, it is not good for people being able to install whatever they want, and quite frankly it is not good for freedom of speech either.

I am not including Google here since their policy is a bit more defendable, you can sideload apps without too much trouble, I even believe that Epic uses that mechanism to do not have to pay the 30%.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#102

Post by nojs » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:06 PM UTC

lordleft wrote: post #6

Imagine if Microsoft did this on PCs. a) prohibiting the installation of non-windows store software (sideloading) and b) insisting that all purchases done via apps give them a 30% cut. I think this is a ridiculous practice on the behalf of Apple.

I fear that macOS is going this way. The amount of hoops to jump through to run third party apps seems to grow with every release.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#103

Post by rndmze » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

rokobobo wrote: post #74

swiley wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is more than welcome to put whatever rules they want on their systems. My phone is not their system though, it’s mine! If I want to run tmux/fetchmail/ocamlc on it then it’s my problem not theirs!

I am not defending closed platforms, but technically, you are free to jailbreak your phone, they're just not obligated to provide any support after that, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Legality

heh, jailbreak is a bad solution to a problem that should not exist.

You should not have to rely on security issues in order to install whatever you want on your phone.

Jailbreak should only be needed when you want to replace OS blocks, not just install something.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#104

Post by coldcode » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

abnry wrote: post #90

coldcode wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will lose as the TOS clearly indicates the rules and Epic agreed to them. This is basic contract law. Apple has a massive team of experienced lawyers.

I'm guessing the crux of the argument will be that the ToS are illegal in this respect?

It is likely extremely difficult to win such a suit based on challenging the terms of an agreement that you agreed to repeatedly. Every single change to the TOS for a developer account requires acceptance. I doubt there is any part of this agreement that Apple did not write with this exact circumstance in mind. No matter what Epic challenges based on this argument in the end they will give in and look like fools. Maybe if they are lucky Apple will lower the % by a little. This is not cutting edge law here.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#105

Post by the-pigeon » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #85

coldcode wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will lose as the TOS clearly indicates the rules and Epic agreed to them. This is basic contract law. Apple has a massive team of experienced lawyers.

TOS can't violate laws though. A contract that is in violation of the law isn't enforceable. Epic is looking for a judgement to make it illegal.

Expanding on this.

The idea that a large platform like iOS can only have apps loaded through a market place controlled by the hardware manufactured is clearly in violation of the spirit of anti-trust laws.

However there's no legal precedent on this because no one with deep enough pockets to fight Apple has been angry enough to do it yet.

Meaning this could be great news for everyone if this goes to court and Apple loses as they should.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#106

Post by webstrand » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

rokobobo wrote: post #74

swiley wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is more than welcome to put whatever rules they want on their systems. My phone is not their system though, it’s mine! If I want to run tmux/fetchmail/ocamlc on it then it’s my problem not theirs!

I am not defending closed platforms, but technically, you are free to jailbreak your phone, they're just not obligated to provide any support after that, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Legality

If Apple provided a way to jailbreak their devices, I'd be more inclined to support this argument. But they try to prevent jailbreaking at every opportunity so, regardless of the legality of it, Apple does not consider the phone your system, they consider it theirs.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#107

Post by nytesky » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

How much of a security risk is side loading apps? It seems pretty large to me, even on a fortified system like iOS.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#108

Post by Jellyd » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #94

mrspeaker wrote: post #46

If I go to the App Store on my phone, and go to my "Purchased" list, Fortnite is still listed there. I wasn't up to date, and clicking on "update" gives the message: "Fortnite" No Longer Available. The developer has removed this app from the App Store. Interesting wording. I wonder if they only have one message for pulled-by-Apple vs pulled-by-dev?

Epic effectively pulled it themselves when they unilaterally broke their agreement. I think Apple's cut is egregious but at the same time, they're not a monopoly. My main gripe is that they're behaving as if they're bringing value that the developers are riding on, when in reality nobody would buy iPhones if it weren't for the value that many developers are bringing to the platform, often at no cost to Apple.

Who else is apple competing with to put apps on iphones? Compared to android where you have indy devs, samsung store, play store, or any other store; it's a clear monopoly.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#109

Post by david-cako » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

coldcode wrote: post #83

ProAm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's device is it? Apple's or the customer that paid for it in full?

The device may be yours but the App Store belongs to Apple. Can you walk into a Walmart and start selling your stuff?

True, but there are other places to buy things than Walmart.

The internet is reasonably open and accessible on iOS, but utilizing the full capability of an iOS device requires the App Store.

Stallman spent a ton of time crusading about how some things are appliances, and other things are computers; those things that are computers should offer flexibility (and ideally openness) in terms of what software you can run on them. In this case, the largest manufacturer of computing devices and software wants 30% of every transaction from native software run on their devices.

Epic was basically looking for preferential treatment, but now they're stepping up to the plate and saying the App Store is not market-friendly. It seems like they could be right, seeing as large as Apple is, and what role they actually have in computing.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#110

Post by Jellyd » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

Findeton wrote: post #13

I don't think this should be regulated at all. Apple should be able to impose their rules in their systems. Let's be clear about this, if people are choosing to buy these black-box closed handheld computing devices, there are consequences that come with that choice.

You are thinking unilaterally on a multilateral issue...