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ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

ice.gov

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Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#101

Post by aaomidi »

eiji wrote: post #90
aaomidi wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Active students currently in the United States enrolled in such programs must depart the country or take other measures, such as transferring to a school with in-person instruction to remain in lawful status. If not, they may face immigration consequences including, but not limited to, the initiation of removal proceedings. Seems like someone didn't read the OP.

I read that. And again, this is a policy. You are not thinking this through, in my opinion. Think about this in a way an accountable official would think. Most universities don't know what they will do yet in the fall. If you make an exemption for people who are currently already in the country, what would that solve? It would artificially pick those students over those who happened to travel home for the summer. You…

> Think about this in a way an accountable official would think.

No they wouldn't. I've held various (small scale) public facing offices before and this isn't how I would think.

Thinking of the consequences of your actions is a very important thing.

> If you make an exemption for people who are currently already in the country, what would that solve?

Decrease the damage done?

> So you have to craft such a "heavy handed" rule in such a way that it doesn't have loop holes that can be exploited. Don't think lawyers didn't review this exemption for weeks.

They probably didn't. We've seen this administration do bullshit orders before. This isn't a new one. Remember when they banned green card holders from coming to the US and there was chaos for 12-24 hours until they came and said whoops those are exempted?

> And my earlier points still stand.

Your wrong points do stand, yes.

> But understand where it comes from

I do. It's bullshit.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#102

Post by vkou »

wbazant wrote: post #67
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #46

Look, I know HN discussions try to keep things respectful, try to prevent flamewars, etc. but I say it's damn hard not to scream out loud "Fuck our current president" with BS like this. This is quite simply racist xenophobic pandering to his "base". International students don't have any control over whether a school is open in person or online, so why punish them like this. It's just evil.

I'm not sure, I think someone there has realised schools could essentially sell visas - if the course is fully online, the student just needs to pay for it, so they don't really need to be a real student. I'm all for opening or abolishing borders (and keep recommending No Wall They Can Build (2016), free as a pdf to people), but I'm not sure if this is simple or that thing you said.

These are non-immigration visas that don't allow you to work in the country, or entitle you to any particular benefits besides 'you can learn and spend your money here, for a few years'.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#103

Post by Simulacra »

cm2187 wrote: post #83
smnrchrds wrote: post #43

> Nonimmigrant F-1 and M-1 students attending schools operating entirely online may not take a full online course load and remain in the United States ... Active students currently in the United States enrolled in such programs must depart the country or take other measures ... This is going to ruin so many lives. An example of how this could result is significant hardship for international students is the case of Ir…

I am not going to defend the Iranian regime or military services in general, which I think is a waste of time for all parties. But is it the role of the US immigration regime to circumvent military duties in foreign countries?

I think one is not the same as the other. The intention is to get an education, the benefit is avoiding Iranian military service. That analysis has no basis in federal law, so no, it’s not the governments responsibility.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#104

Post by Simulacra »

tmoney9999 wrote: post #20
_hszs wrote: post #13

Such pathetic leadership. International students already in the country must now either attend an in person class and risk their lives, or fly out from the country with the highest number of infections and spread it to their friends and family at home. Not to mention the loss to the research community. I can’t see anything that is to be gained from this, other than pandering to a xenophobic voter base.

Only possible good thing I can see from a US student perspective is that it's now more reasonable to go to grad school in US. Many programs in STEM have gotten out of hand with the number of the foreign graduate students--in some programs the number is over 80% [1]. I think this has led to the US educating many persons who later leave the country for visa issues. Also, some of the competition to get in can be conside…

Well yes, of course, international students pay significantly more than in state. Money makes the university go round, that’s how the Confucius Institutes got started.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#105

Post by Simulacra »

nine_zeros wrote: post #32

Any prospective international student reading this should REALLY reconsider education in the US. The administration is using everyone as pawns in a massive game of vote pandering. It's hard enough to study hard and achieve goals. Why come here where you will be treated like unwanted foreigners at best and asylees who should be arrested at worst?

International students should simply avoid America all together. There are too many risks, consequences, and pitfalls to make it worth wild.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#106

Post by Simulacra »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #92

Can someone offer a sensible reason for this policy? I am trying to look for anything that would make it not look like an outright political decision, but I can't.

As Speaker Pelosi said: Don’t let a good crisis go to waste.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#107

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

zaroth wrote: post #85
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no excuse for outright canceling classes. Classes can absolutely be held safely, Why do so few people actually charged with making this decision agree with you? And US college is about a lot more than classes.

Probably because they didn't consider the downside to their decision. They don't empathize with the students who can't possibly learn the material without a classroom environment, or for those who worked and dreamed of attending that University for years only to be sent the bill without most of the benefit. To say nothing of those students who literally don't have a (safe) place to live lined up besides being on-camp…

So you agree there's a lot more than classes, but think that the claim that classes can be held means that schools should just stay in regular mode.

I don't disagree with you about the cash flow. My disagreement is with ICE telling students they cannot remain here just because schools went online-only.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#108

Post by yorwba »

mynameisvlad wrote: post #99
usaar333 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China effectively is by limiting flights.

That's not the same thing at all. There's always been a flight a week from the US to China, so even if it takes a while, it's still possible. Especially so with at least a month's notice.

A month is not enough if all the tickets have been snatched by scalpers and you can't afford the markup they ask for.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#109

Post by jelliclesfarm »

usaar333 wrote: post #96
cm2187 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven’t heard of any country turning down their own nationals returning home.

China effectively is by limiting flights.

I finally shelled out the $ for the paid version of a flight radar app because I was curious. The friendly skies are mostly empty. 85ish% of all flights in and out of Bay Area is from/to China.

I always had the free version but the paid version will ping me every time a flight goes over me(my phone actually) and for a mere $6.99/month, I can find out the air traffic of the area. It’s an affordable hobby for covid. I highly recommend it.

I don’t know what it really means but just an observation.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#110

Post by gji »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #57
Balgair wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post quals grad students are going to be hard pressed to get a PCR machine, vivarium, or fluoroscope up and running in their parent's house. You know, machines vital to figuring out covid vaccines. I've no idea how most of them will get any quality lab-bench research done. It pretty much nukes them.

Campuses are going to be closed in the Fall. Nobody is going to have access to those things.

You seem to be very convinced of this. At my institution, research activities has resumed for the past month (albeit with restrictions on occupancy).
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