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“Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

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Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#101

Post by [deleted] »

kryogen1c wrote: post #89
throwawaygh wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kaczynski's manifesto functions primarily as a rationalization for his violence and anger. Engaging with the text in a way that doesn't admit that fact would be like reading the Declaration of Independence as if it were a piece of Science Fiction, or reading a scientific article as if it were a love letter. You can of course proceed in that way, but it'll result in a fundamentally erroneous understanding of the meani…

> Kaczynski's manifesto functions primarily as a rationalization for his violence and anger. this isnt an argument. either the text is sound or it isnt; either the arguments are presented clearly from first principles with evidence or theyre not. the intent or state of the writer is irrevelant.

[deleted]

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#102

Post by eaandkw »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #29
daenz wrote: post #23

Some people here can't seem to separate ideas from the person who generates them, and that is sad. You can hate what a person did and still try to understand why they did it. That does not equate to support for them. It's this kind of closed-mindedness that is driving people apart all over the world.

it's also what leads to banning books and wanting to whitewash language

Careful with the word "whitewash". Might get banned in favor of some other stupid word like "cleanwash".

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#103

Post by oldsklgdfth »

"The concept of “mental health” in our society is defined largely by the extent to which an individual behaves in accord with the needs of the system and does so without showing signs of stress."

This part made me question the mental health of our society today. This are large swaths of the population that use amphetamines, antidepressants, anti-anxiety medication just to be able to function on a day-to-day basis. Maybe the problem is not exclusively in the individual, maybe some of this stems from society.

This idea along with some writing of Marcus Aurelius helped me find some peace of mind and try to reduce the influence the external world has on me.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#104

Post by emiliobumachar »

daenz wrote: post #20
jamesdhutton wrote: post #12

He murdered people to publicize his manifesto. I feel that if I were to read it, I would be encouraging others to kill to get their views known. So I won't be reading it, regardless of its merits.

Do you think you are doing your part to discourage future murderers from publishing manifestos? It's hard for me to follow the logic of how what you describe works.

It's not about discouraging future murderers from publishing manifestos, it's about discouraging future manifesto-writers from murdering.

It's quite simple logic really. The less attention terrorists get, the less appealing terrorism becomes as a means to get attention.

See also: "The surest defense against terrorism is to refuse to be terrorized." https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2006/08/refuse_to_b...

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#105

Post by marcinzm »

kryogen1c wrote: post #89
throwawaygh wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kaczynski's manifesto functions primarily as a rationalization for his violence and anger. Engaging with the text in a way that doesn't admit that fact would be like reading the Declaration of Independence as if it were a piece of Science Fiction, or reading a scientific article as if it were a love letter. You can of course proceed in that way, but it'll result in a fundamentally erroneous understanding of the meani…

> Kaczynski's manifesto functions primarily as a rationalization for his violence and anger. this isnt an argument. either the text is sound or it isnt; either the arguments are presented clearly from first principles with evidence or theyre not. the intent or state of the writer is irrevelant.

I'd argue that essentially no writing on social issues is really sound. We don't understand humanity in aggregate (or even in singularity) or what underpins us well enough. Scientific studies on these topics are generally limited and biased with true randomization being essentially impossible. It's all based on hand chosen axioms on humanity that are picked to aid the author's statement rather than being derived from any objective truth.

edit: As such you're essentially reading religious preaching and we are all capable of being converted to a religion. So it makes sense to check ahead of time that you're not getting converted into a violent cult.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#106

Post by leto_ii »

LatteLazy wrote: post #88

Plenty of people have pointed out that changes to society create problems and even leave us worse off in terms of happiness or health or freedom etc. I'd recommend Jared Diamond on agriculture for a shorter, better written, non homicidal alternative: https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/the-worst-mist... But here is thing: you don't get to decide. You're whole society doesn't get to decide. You have to do wh…

> But here is thing: you don't get to decide. You're whole society doesn't get to decide.

This is why we have established what is sometimes called a 'rule-based international order', so that we can have a world where might makes right doesn't apply anymore. Where the weak get protection and the strong are compelled to act morally and legally.

Unfortunately, of course, the rules mostly stay on paper and the world continues to be driven by power and violence. This however doesn't mean that we shouldn't push for a better world and that we shouldn't hold people and nations responsible for their brutality.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#107

Post by thefounder »

You have little power over diseases without technology, not to mention that a disability may render you worthless/good as dead so you can count me out of this "back to the cave" movement.

If you want ultimate "tranquility" build a spaceship and conquer the ultimate frontier alone. Nobody will bother you in the cosmic void.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#108

Post by vertex-four »

oezi wrote: post #34
dangerface wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you say im reductionist and then describe someone that based his life believes on a book, thats a fruit cake. He then decided to blow people up because they got too close with their fancy technology... a road, double fruit cake. What was his point beyond technology bad? The only thing you mention is that Jacques Ellul had the arguments and he was just a fruit cake, which was my argument.

Excuse me asking but what is a fruit cake when it comes to assessing a human and how does it pertain to assessing his book (however you judge it)?

It's the same logic as "an insane person can never have a valid complaint about the asylum", a problem which mentally ill people deal on a regular basis with when trying to affect change in their treatment.

Not saying the Unabomber actually has anything worth reading, I've never read the manifesto, but dismissing it wholesale (and angrily) before doing so is rather illogical.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#109

Post by LatteLazy »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #94
LatteLazy wrote: post #88

Plenty of people have pointed out that changes to society create problems and even leave us worse off in terms of happiness or health or freedom etc. I'd recommend Jared Diamond on agriculture for a shorter, better written, non homicidal alternative: https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/the-worst-mist... But here is thing: you don't get to decide. You're whole society doesn't get to decide. You have to do wh…

It’s up to us to make the society we want to. The US need fear no other country, it’s probably the most secure nation in history right now. So they could be free to conduct any social experiment.

If the social experiment is to throw away all the guns, close the military, dismantle the economy and all go live in the forest, how will the US STILL be the most powerful nation?

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#110

Post by Aunche »

stared wrote: post #27

I was stuck by this passage from an interview ( https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-an-int... ): > In living close to nature, one discovers that happiness does not consist in maximizing pleasure. It consists in tranquility. Once you have enjoyed tranquility long enough, you acquire actually an aversion to the thought of any very strong pleasure—excessive pleasure would disrupt your tranquility. > Fi…

>If you don’t have any work that needs to be done, you can sit for hours at a time just doing nothing, just listening to the birds or the wind or the silence, watching the shadows move as the sun travels, or simply looking at familiar objects.

Anyone in the US can do this today if they really wanted to. Plenty of backpackers on the Appalachian trail just do a couple months of manual labor, and live minimalistically the rest of the year.

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