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Storage Matters: Why Xbox and Playstation SSDs Usher in a New Era of Gaming

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101–110 of 159 posts

Re: Storage Matters: Why Xbox and Playstation SSDs Usher in a New Era of Gaming

#101
post #11

I hate to say it but this SSD story has been plastered all over the news by the PR machine, mainly because the new consoles have no other inovations whatsoever.... No, it is not going to usher a new area of gaming, just make game have less 'loading' screens, and perhaps larger open worlds.... but it is no near the innovation and changes we experiences in the 90s and early 2000's.... Let me say in a more popular langu…

The N64 looked way better, loaded faster, had a better controller, and to me had a better game library as a whole. The PS1 had comparatively horrible architectural choices like no built-in z-buffer, texture filtering, or floating point processing. Apparently N64 sold less per year available though. What did everyone see in the PS1?

Sony marketed the device to an older generation e.g they had PlayStation demo station in night clubs. Until Sony entered the gaming market, consoles were largely considered a children toy.

Re: Storage Matters: Why Xbox and Playstation SSDs Usher in a New Era of Gaming

#102
post #11

I hate to say it but this SSD story has been plastered all over the news by the PR machine, mainly because the new consoles have no other inovations whatsoever.... No, it is not going to usher a new area of gaming, just make game have less 'loading' screens, and perhaps larger open worlds.... but it is no near the innovation and changes we experiences in the 90s and early 2000's.... Let me say in a more popular langu…

The N64 looked way better, loaded faster, had a better controller, and to me had a better game library as a whole. The PS1 had comparatively horrible architectural choices like no built-in z-buffer, texture filtering, or floating point processing. Apparently N64 sold less per year available though. What did everyone see in the PS1?

Personally, watching a friend roam around the world map of final fantasy VII, I had never seen a game like that in my life. I couldn't stop thinking about it. Even goldeneye couldn't talk me out of getting a PS1 after that.

Re: Storage Matters: Why Xbox and Playstation SSDs Usher in a New Era of Gaming

#103
post #11

I hate to say it but this SSD story has been plastered all over the news by the PR machine, mainly because the new consoles have no other inovations whatsoever.... No, it is not going to usher a new area of gaming, just make game have less 'loading' screens, and perhaps larger open worlds.... but it is no near the innovation and changes we experiences in the 90s and early 2000's.... Let me say in a more popular langu…

You don't count a load time of almost 10 times faster as a generational leap? Ray tracing right now is just a gimmick, I don't care about puddles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqV7BNoQEr4

This is comparing next-gen NVMe to a 5400 rpm HDD. It’s a generational leap only because they’re skipping at least two or three generations.

Re: Storage Matters: Why Xbox and Playstation SSDs Usher in a New Era of Gaming

#104
post #73

My understanding is that what makes these new SSDs so special is the embedded decompression hardware. That sounds great... but I can't help but think back a couple generations to the PS3 and its cell architecture. Yeah, it was more efficient than x86, but few developers really managed to capitalize on it until the end of that generation. By that point, the PS3 was lagging far behind the 360 is US sales and had long s…

> Will we see something similar with these SSDs? Are devs actually prepared to take advantage of the special decompression hardware? Or will it be the stuff of dreams and tech demos for the first few years?

Hard to say, but another big point in Cernys talk was developer productivity and why they don't try to use "revolutionary" hardware like the Cell architecture anymore: Onboarding time for new teams is just too long. We don't know yet if it is true, but he talked about an onboarding time of 1 month for a team of developers new to PS5 (but with game dev experience). The last time a team could be productive this fast was PS1. If that's true I think we have a decent chance of devs using all the tech provided from the start. More so for PS5 only titles than for multi-platform titles.

Re: Storage Matters: Why Xbox and Playstation SSDs Usher in a New Era of Gaming

#105
post #20
post #11

I hate to say it but this SSD story has been plastered all over the news by the PR machine, mainly because the new consoles have no other inovations whatsoever.... No, it is not going to usher a new area of gaming, just make game have less 'loading' screens, and perhaps larger open worlds.... but it is no near the innovation and changes we experiences in the 90s and early 2000's.... Let me say in a more popular langu…

You can tell someone hasn't watched the Ratchet & Clank demo from the other day[0]. The SSDs in these consoles go far beyond short load times. They can radically change how games are made and designed. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsnG-3-r6-Q

That seems to be progressing on rails, what does the SSD help here? Maybe you can postpone preloading the assets later before the transition, and thus need to free up memory slightly later for next scene's asset decode/load buffers. Though there isn't anything here that looks like 2 or more scene's worth of assets couldn't be in memory at the same time.

Re: Storage Matters: Why Xbox and Playstation SSDs Usher in a New Era of Gaming

#106
post #11

I hate to say it but this SSD story has been plastered all over the news by the PR machine, mainly because the new consoles have no other inovations whatsoever.... No, it is not going to usher a new area of gaming, just make game have less 'loading' screens, and perhaps larger open worlds.... but it is no near the innovation and changes we experiences in the 90s and early 2000's.... Let me say in a more popular langu…

I think you missed the real point: Textures stored on the SSDs is now byte addressable by the texturing unit on the GPU. When the texturing unit issue a read for texture data, the read can now go directly to the SSD controller, and SSD controller issue NVMe commands to read the data. The texture decompression block sits between the GPU and SSD controller, decompresses the texture at line speed. This way, the GPU can read the texture at the exact detail levels given by the amount of pixels covered by the texture. It gives a texture infinite mips level. The GPU can also place the texture data needed for the current frame in the GPU memory, GPU memory becomes more like a cache for textures. This reduce GPU memory usage. Imagine you want to render a camera flying through a forest. Before you need the texture for the trees and have multiple version of them for far away trees and nearby trees. As the camera flies over, you transition from the low detail texture to the most detailed texture. That is why you see the texture pop in in today's games. Going forward, you just need the most detailed texture, and have the GPU automatically sample the texture according to the pixel needs to be rendered. There will be no stepping in between, it will be continuous. This solves texture pop in at a fundamental level.

Another benefit is reduce CPU involvement. Textures are fundamentally stored on disk, and GPU needs to access that data for rendering. Before we would have the CPU use OS's filesystem storage stack, read a file block, decode the texture in CPU memory, copy the texture to GPU memory using PCI-e, and ask the GPU to render with that data. This method allows the GPU directly read from a SSD, bypassing all of the steps in between. As SSD becomes faster and faster, OS's filesystem is becoming the bottleneck.

Re: Storage Matters: Why Xbox and Playstation SSDs Usher in a New Era of Gaming

#107
A lot of people here don't quite seem to get what this is all about.

Previously, a PC or a console might have 4-8 cores (or hyperthreads, or cell processors, or whatever). Typically, you'd want to be doing sequential I/O from just one of those processor cores, because more than likely be a mechanical disk. At most you could do asynchronous or threaded I/O so that the CPU core could also do other computation while waiting for textures to stream in (or whatever), but that's about it.

More than one concurrent I/O at a time (even from other programs!) would cause the disk head to seek, killing your performance. You'd get stuttering in the game or texture popping as the I/O fell behind. You could budget on maybe 20-30 MB/s if you're lucky, or less than 5 MB/s random I/O if unlucky.

It made no difference if you had a PC with an SSD, as zero games were written for it.

So now, with SSDs in consoles as standard you would automatically assume, that we can finally utilise all the CPU threads and throw 8 cores worth of I/O at the SSD. Maybe increase the queue depth a bit more, have some asynchronous and overlapped I/Os or something.

But that's crazy difficult. The models and textures being streamed in are actually used on the GPU, not the CPU. Each texture is typically mip-mapped, building up a "pyramid" of lower and lower resolution versions to prevent moire when viewed at a distance. The "currently used set" of each texture is a complicated angled 'slice' through this sort-of-3D texture 'volume'! This is used asynchronously by the GPU, and ideally you'd somehow want to track this, figuring out which parts are used by the GPU, which aren't, from which mip-map layer, etc.. and then predict ahead the next set of 32x32 tiles or whatever you'd want to load. In parallel. Across 8 CPU cores. While the GPU is doing its own thing.

Just no. That's not happening. The synchronisation alone would be a nightmare. It's crazy talk. No human can write code like this, and certainly not optimally and efficiently.

So the brilliant thing about the GPU on the PS5 is that the GPU can make direct I/O calls. No CPU involvement. Whatever it "needs", as and when it decides, it can simply directly fetch.

It's not going to do this with 8 cores, or 16 threads. No, it's going to do it with thousands of cores. The I/O queue depths that used to be "exactly 1" for literally 100% of all previous games are not going to be 8. They're going to be tens of thousands! This is massive. This isn't "a couple of random I/Os done a little bit better", it's four or five orders of magnitude.

Re: Storage Matters: Why Xbox and Playstation SSDs Usher in a New Era of Gaming

#108
post #11

I hate to say it but this SSD story has been plastered all over the news by the PR machine, mainly because the new consoles have no other inovations whatsoever.... No, it is not going to usher a new area of gaming, just make game have less 'loading' screens, and perhaps larger open worlds.... but it is no near the innovation and changes we experiences in the 90s and early 2000's.... Let me say in a more popular langu…

I think you missed the real point: Textures stored on the SSDs is now byte addressable by the texturing unit on the GPU. When the texturing unit issue a read for texture data, the read can now go directly to the SSD controller, and SSD controller issue NVMe commands to read the data. The texture decompression block sits between the GPU and SSD controller, decompresses the texture at line speed. This way, the GPU can…

> GPU directly read from a SSD, bypassing all of the steps in between

Ehh... unless you have more specific knowledge that’s still under NDA, the reasonable assumption is that the CPU still mmap()es the file into the GPU’s address space, and then the CPU pages in data from the SSD as the GPU generates page misses. Which is technically possible on PCs today, but isn’t done because you can’t assume fast SSDs and you definitely can’t assume shared memory. (actually I’m pretty sure discrete GPUs can generate page misses for mapped CPU memory, but I’m not certain which graphics APIs really let that happen)

Re: Storage Matters: Why Xbox and Playstation SSDs Usher in a New Era of Gaming

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed the real point: Textures stored on the SSDs is now byte addressable by the texturing unit on the GPU. When the texturing unit issue a read for texture data, the read can now go directly to the SSD controller, and SSD controller issue NVMe commands to read the data. The texture decompression block sits between the GPU and SSD controller, decompresses the texture at line speed. This way, the GPU can…

> GPU directly read from a SSD, bypassing all of the steps in between Ehh... unless you have more specific knowledge that’s still under NDA, the reasonable assumption is that the CPU still mmap()es the file into the GPU’s address space, and then the CPU pages in data from the SSD as the GPU generates page misses. Which is technically possible on PCs today, but isn’t done because you can’t assume fast SSDs and you def…

Better be at least 2 MB pages then. 5.5M (max. 22 GB/s compression output on PS5) page faults per second for 4 kB pages might otherwise ruin this scheme a bit...

2 MB page size would reduce this to "just" 11k page faults per second.

Re: Storage Matters: Why Xbox and Playstation SSDs Usher in a New Era of Gaming

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The N64 looked way better, loaded faster, had a better controller, and to me had a better game library as a whole. The PS1 had comparatively horrible architectural choices like no built-in z-buffer, texture filtering, or floating point processing. Apparently N64 sold less per year available though. What did everyone see in the PS1?

Personally, watching a friend roam around the world map of final fantasy VII, I had never seen a game like that in my life. I couldn't stop thinking about it. Even goldeneye couldn't talk me out of getting a PS1 after that.

Same, that was the only reason I bought a PlayStation.
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