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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#101

Post by Avicebron »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #75
softwaredoug wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which parts are the media narrative? The “imperial presidency” is part of an ongoing trend of increasing executive power for decades. High unemployment from Covid is objectively true. Ineffectiveness combating Covid at a Federal level is hard to debate...

We used to have media that tried to be objective. They produced an Overton Window that was pretty centrist. Those days are gone. Now we have Fox with a clear bias or slant, CNN with a clear bias to the other side, and NBC somewhat more centrist but still not objective. (If you want relatively unbiased US news, try Reuters.) That's bad enough. But people don't just get "news" that way; they get it from Facebook and Tw…

I recommend to everyone that they read jurgen habermas' "The Structural Transformation of the Public Sphere", we are eroding our ability to have rational communication. I won't say it's deliberate, but it feels that way.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#102

Post by newbie789 »

devalgo wrote: post #39
nradov wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. It worked for us.

>I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. This is incoherent. You can't claim to not condone violence and in the same sentence say but actually it works.

I think perhaps you're putting uneven amounts of weight on violence depending on who is participating in it. My understanding of the protests is that it (at least partially) is currently serving as a response to the accepted police's monopoly on violence.

I see in another of your posts you said something to the effect of "If (protests) become violent, don't be surprised when (the police) respond with violence."

This solidly frames the protesters as the sole provocateurs and the police as solidly the ones that are backed into a corner. It's almost as if your argument relies on ignoring the literal murder of George Floyd when looking at the timeline of events.

To paraphrase a joke I saw a while ago, "If a police officer were kneeling on my neck, I would simply vote that officer out of office." It's patent nonsense meant for amusement, but the line of reasoning is similar to what you can construct out of specially selected MLK quotes or whatever.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#103

Post by throwaway894345 »

mmastrac wrote: post #22
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

> The MLK quote is trotted out pretty often, but "a riot is the language of the unheard".

Does anyone really believe this applies in this case? Lots of protesters are openly condemning the riots as "patently not about justice but only personal greed and appetite for violence".

> The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is so fundamentally damaged and has not been effectively reformed fast enough.

Both? I don't understand this "either or" mentality. "Why is everyone condemning the riots instead of condemning Floyd's murder?" Literally everyone is condemning Floyd's murder. Even the police unions are condemning Floyd's murder. It's the one thing everyone agrees on. Murderer was arrested and charged. The "debate" is about the merits of burning/looting/shooting-up communities (with an apparent preference for poor, minority communities) on top of the criminal prosecution.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#104

Post by vkou »

solotronics wrote: post #77
vkou wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police were breaking those taboos constantly last week. I've seen them casually macing people (not to move them, or to make arrests - they didn't occupy that space, they just sprayed the front of a line down, because they could) tossing tear gas and flashbangs into non-violent crowds (again, without any intention of occupying the vacated space), and shooting non-lethal projectiles at people who were sitting on th…

Police are people too and when you escalate to violence and destruction you might get answered with force. Making this an us vs them and not having any proper form of discourse between the parties is causing the explosive reactions on both sides.

https://old.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/gu3qq1/cop_just_ca...

Do any of the people who got gassed in this video look like they are committing violence or destruction? The cop who tossed the gas grenade is certainly committing violence, but that's about all I can see.

> I'm not a tough person, I'm not an aggressive person, I'm not a violent person. I was just standing there quietly alongside other peaceful protestors. I wanted desperately for the police to prove us wrong and show compassion and a desire to serve and protect the people. I was speaking gently to the officer who shoved me back before this...trying to look him in the face through his gas mask...telling him my name, about my wife and my family. I don't know why really.

> Then this gas was dropped and it went to hell. I was already blind within seconds. I couldn't breathe, I couldn't see. When I opened my eyes the smoke was too thick anyway to see a way out. I shouted that I couldn't breathe several times. The police just told me to move. I yelled, "Where?" with my last breath, but no help. I stumbled through the gas. The whole time in a complete panic. I could not breathe, and my involuntary response when the gas hit was to push all the air out of my lungs. I felt like I would collapse within seconds, and nearly did.

> Somehow I got out, after going a couple blocks through the smoke. I was nauseous, I had vomit in my mouth. Snot poured from my face. I still couldn't breathe. Every instinct told me not to breathe, but I figured I needed to get the gas out of my lungs, and I forced some breath.

> I stumbled away for the next 30 minutes, trying to get home. Some kind people gave me milk to pour in my eyes and face to help with the burns. Someone sprayed me with baking soda and water. As I was leaving, I saw more and more people coming down silently to join the protests.

> It's the next day, about 20 hours later. I still feel the tear gas in my lungs. It still burns.

> Not being able to breathe is the most terrifying experience of my life. A little fucking ironic, isn't it, to have the police forcing tens to hundreds of protestors to not be able to breathe at this protest?

It is going to be an us versus them, because not a single cop broke line, to do anything about the one who threw the grenade. They are making this an us versus them, because they stand as a united block, protecting their own, regardless the circumstances.

The job of a peace officer is to de-escalate the situation. Not a single one of them in the video is de-escalating the situation. One of them is committing assault, and the rest are standing there, watching.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#105

Post by sidibe »

Press2forEN wrote: post #97
austincheney wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Voting and democracy should not become a device to placate the dissatisfied masses into silence, make them lineup for ballot, to choose a lesser evil who, in most likelihood, will turn out to be a egotistical power-seeker. What else should you expect when people are limited to only two political parties? It could be worse with only one political party.

I think the real problem is that those two political parties represent factions of the population with incompatible values. We don't need more political parties, we need solutions to manage the incompatibility.

I wonder if things would be better if there was some mandatory thing like jury duty where you had to go meet and hang out for an hour with a different randomly picked person every a month at some center where they'd have something for you to do so it's not 100% awkward.

I realize that's a terrible idea, but not sure of any way of changing people's attitudes towards each other when they'd rather stick to their little groups and believe the worst about everyone else.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#106

Post by devalgo »

newbie789 wrote: post #102
devalgo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. This is incoherent. You can't claim to not condone violence and in the same sentence say but actually it works.

I think perhaps you're putting uneven amounts of weight on violence depending on who is participating in it. My understanding of the protests is that it (at least partially) is currently serving as a response to the accepted police's monopoly on violence. I see in another of your posts you said something to the effect of "If (protests) become violent, don't be surprised when (the police) respond with violence." This…

>I see in another of your posts you said something to the effect of "If (protests) become violent, don't be surprised when (the police) respond with violence."

You must have me confused with someone else. I've never made a comment like that.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#107

Post by Avicebron »

Press2forEN wrote: post #97
austincheney wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Voting and democracy should not become a device to placate the dissatisfied masses into silence, make them lineup for ballot, to choose a lesser evil who, in most likelihood, will turn out to be a egotistical power-seeker. What else should you expect when people are limited to only two political parties? It could be worse with only one political party.

I think the real problem is that those two political parties represent factions of the population with incompatible values. We don't need more political parties, we need solutions to manage the incompatibility.

I think labeling the two sides as fundamentally incompatible is a real danger and quite possible a symptom of the two parties and not it's cause. I see enough similarity between the actions of both parties (maybe not as much their rhetoric) that I think if there is incompatibility, there is a deeper reason for it then "muh beliefs".

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#108

Post by frockington1 »

pathseeker wrote: post #36
mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

>I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. But it's not clear that the violence/property damage component was worth it. Nationwide protests and all of the public outcry could have been enough. Hard to tell at this point.

Not to mention that the communities they are destroying don't have a great tax base to begin with. After destroying businesses and property its going to shrink even more.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#109

Post by devalgo »

bbatsell wrote: post #88
devalgo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1992 LA Riots caused over a $Billion in damage and 63 people died. Given that the scale of those riots far surpassed anything we're seeing now and given that nearly 30 years later another instance of police brutality preceded the current turmoil isn't it clear that your approach has failed?

LAPD underwent unprecedented reform in the wake of the riots. It’s certainly not a perfect department, but it is exponentially better than it was in 1992. You are making the opposite point you think you are. The riots and DoJ consent decrees are literally the _only_ tactics that have succeeded in the past. The failure after the riots was that we didn’t treat it as a national problem and undertake systemic reform of o…

>The failure after the riots

It would appear that you in fact made my point for me.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#110

Post by [deleted] »

solomonb wrote: post #49
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

What are your thoughts on the Boston Tea Party?

[deleted]
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