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Germany shuts down seven reactors‎ because of Fokushima

reuters.com

101–110 of 141 posts

Re: Germany shuts down seven reactors‎ because of Fokushima

#101
post #3

Nice to know that there is another country out there that's as irrational as the US. Does Germany have a lot of tsunamis?

how come that so many HN readers are so pro-nuclear? would that change if the fall-out from japan would hit the U.S. like the chernobyl fall-out hit germany in the 80s?

Re: Germany shuts down seven reactors‎ because of Fokushima

#102
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

K=1/2*mv^2? My intuition (as a mechanical engineer, desinging military systems as my day job) is that the F16 going supersonic is far worse. Either way, there is no possible way you have enough information to make any of the claims you just made. A better question to ask yourself how safe your highway transportation is, because within an hour of my house we've had 15 people killed in bus accidents in the last 72 hour…

> Either way, there is no possible way you have enough information to make any of the claims you just made. I took out this from this report ( http://www.euronuclear.org/reflections/nuclear-facilities.ht... ), which I think was also mentioned by jgrahamc: > The studies showed that even if knowledgeable insiders could disable key safety equipment, redundant systems would provide backup protection. In scenarios where a…

The backup generators that they bought on site had the wrong types of plugs on them.

When this is all done, I am sure that most of the problems at Fukishima will be found to be administrative rather than design.

As an aside, that plant was designed to withstand an 8.4 earthquake. Design requirements and actual strength are two different issues. Even a complete meltdown, such as at Three Mile Island, should be contained.

Re: Germany shuts down seven reactors‎ because of Fokushima

#103
post #9

This strikes me more as a political stunt by Merkel to rally the conservative base in Germany than anything else. Still, it doesn't surprise me that this is such a hot button issue right now. I've long been a supporter of nuclear power, but the events of the past week have made me start to reconsider a lot of my beliefs about its safety.

Which beliefs? That a nuclear power station situated in a major earthquake zone next to the coast could magically survive a 9.0 earthquake and a tsunami? Right now, we don't know how serious this situation is, it could be that this will end with a small amount of radiation leaked and four reactors that have to be decommissioned. Or it could end with a major environmental disaster. We simply don't know yet. I'd cautio…

One thing that is moderately interesting is that tsunamis can happen without earthquakes - Scotland was stuck by a 20m tsunami about 6000BC due to an underwater landslide off Norway.

I did find myself wondering if the impressively engineered AGR site at Torness would survive a 20m tsunami - almost certainly not as I suspect this wasn't part of the requirements.

Re: Germany shuts down seven reactors‎ because of Fokushima

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because you're mind is clouded by the effects of a mental fallacy (the availability heuristic to be precise) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic

You have the full right to disagree with me; I voiced my post as my personal opinion. But you're very rude to say my mind is clouded. I simply don't like large downside risks.

Huh, I cannot react to your post directly.

No matter how you compute statistics, a nuclear meltdown is a big downside risk. It can happen, and if it happens it's extremely destructive. It's an event with a small chance of occurence but with great consequences.

That's qualitatively different from something like traffic accidents. The chances of those happening are much higher, but if they happen, they affect at most a few people, They won't turn your city into a 'wildlife reserve' for years to come.

Even though the total amount of people that die of traffic accidents is higher, to me it's less scary. The risks are more manageable: you have some degree of control over it (drive safely) and the consequences are visible.

Re: Germany shuts down seven reactors‎ because of Fokushima

#105
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done a ridiculous amount of reading the past few days, and I still believe that nuclear power is probably the best source of power that we have available to us. But I didn't realize that keeping a reactor vessel (and fuel storage pools) cool after the reactor has been scrammed is such a challenge. I also didn't know that hydrogen explosions are a normal byproduct of cooling down a reactor core. Yes, I know that…

"I've done a ridiculous amount of reading the past few days, and I still believe that nuclear power is probably the best source of power that we have available to us." The best source of power that we have is to use energy more efficiently.

Efficiency only goes so far. There are billions of people in the world who use very little electricity, and soon they're all going to want huge TVs, electric stoves, washers and dryers, water heaters, air conditioners... for which enough power cannot be provided by simply using less of what we already produce. We will have to increase production.

Re: Germany shuts down seven reactors‎ because of Fokushima

#106
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That a nuclear power station situation in a major earthquake zone next to the coast could magically survive a 9.0 earthquake and a tsunami? The un-posed question is "what happens if a group of terrorists fly an A380 directly into one of these plants"? Someone on reddit was mentioning that a nuclear plant in Texas was built to "withstand a direct hit from an F-16 traveling at supersonic speeds", but I guess an A380…

K=1/2*mv^2? My intuition (as a mechanical engineer, desinging military systems as my day job) is that the F16 going supersonic is far worse. Either way, there is no possible way you have enough information to make any of the claims you just made. A better question to ask yourself how safe your highway transportation is, because within an hour of my house we've had 15 people killed in bus accidents in the last 72 hour…

Huh? The mass of the A380 is at least 100 (and perhaps 1000) times the mass of the F16 (just picture them flying side-by-side and note the area of sky obscured by the A380 versus the F16 and note that although the mass density of the F16 might be higher than the A380 because much more of the mass is engine, it is not twice as dense as the A380).

And no way can the F16 go 10 times as fast as the A380.

So the kinetic energy of the A380 is definitely higher, probably by a considerable amount.

Re: Germany shuts down seven reactors‎ because of Fokushima

#107
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which beliefs? That a nuclear power station situated in a major earthquake zone next to the coast could magically survive a 9.0 earthquake and a tsunami? Right now, we don't know how serious this situation is, it could be that this will end with a small amount of radiation leaked and four reactors that have to be decommissioned. Or it could end with a major environmental disaster. We simply don't know yet. I'd cautio…

I think saying "magically survive" is being uncharitable to bhousel. What it has made me reconsider is the notion that even if we're able to design a system to withstand the problems we do foresee, it still may fail because of the problems we don't foresee or considered too unlikely. I know this is almost a tautology, but when the stakes are as high as a nuclear powerplant, it's important to consider. Nuclear powerpl…

And if we discover that, short of an asteroid impact, the worst case scenario is that we end up with a sealed containment vessel which has to sit on site for 10 years to cool off and then cleaned up and disposed of. What does that say?

I think in the context of 'major disaster' if the nuclear plant's core stops being usable as a power plant but otherwise has contributes little to the final cleanup, that would suggest to me that its a good strategy.

Re: Germany shuts down seven reactors‎ because of Fokushima

#108
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done a ridiculous amount of reading the past few days, and I still believe that nuclear power is probably the best source of power that we have available to us. But I didn't realize that keeping a reactor vessel (and fuel storage pools) cool after the reactor has been scrammed is such a challenge. I also didn't know that hydrogen explosions are a normal byproduct of cooling down a reactor core. Yes, I know that…

"I've done a ridiculous amount of reading the past few days, and I still believe that nuclear power is probably the best source of power that we have available to us." The best source of power that we have is to use energy more efficiently.

Thats untrue. In his 2009 Ted Speech Bill Gates shows pretty easy why that idea is not realistic: http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates.html

Re: Germany shuts down seven reactors‎ because of Fokushima

#109
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done a ridiculous amount of reading the past few days, and I still believe that nuclear power is probably the best source of power that we have available to us. But I didn't realize that keeping a reactor vessel (and fuel storage pools) cool after the reactor has been scrammed is such a challenge. I also didn't know that hydrogen explosions are a normal byproduct of cooling down a reactor core. Yes, I know that…

"I've done a ridiculous amount of reading the past few days, and I still believe that nuclear power is probably the best source of power that we have available to us." The best source of power that we have is to use energy more efficiently.

Energy efficiency only goes so far when we're pushing to power more transportation off of the electrical grid as well.

Re: Germany shuts down seven reactors‎ because of Fokushima

#110
post #19
post #9

This strikes me more as a political stunt by Merkel to rally the conservative base in Germany than anything else. Still, it doesn't surprise me that this is such a hot button issue right now. I've long been a supporter of nuclear power, but the events of the past week have made me start to reconsider a lot of my beliefs about its safety.

Why? I actually think the events of the past week prove it's safety. Let put it in perspective: a 40 year old nuclear reactor gets hit by a 9 magnitude earthquake, then slammed with 20 ft. tall swell of water, followed by an explosion due to the buildup of hydrogen gas that blows off the roof of the building, and after all that the core was still mostly intact and contained. That seems like an amazingly positive resu…

The threat of death's and longterm genetical damages for our childrens and their's and the loss of a huge terretory for thousand's of years isn't exactly an amazingly positive result to me. Who know's if the cancer of my mother and my father (both died young) was caused by the radiation we received from Tschernobyl in Europe. I think one has to actually live through the threat of radiation ( I did and I feel with the Japanese today) to understand why the Germans are shutting down their nuclear plants and why this is the only reasonable thing to do, once you realize that it is an arrogant error of mankind to think they can control nature.
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