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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#101

Post by jedberg »

kansface wrote: post #32
stu2b50 wrote: post #18

I think this is a good move overall. Remember, they're not phasing out tests entirely, it's over a 5 year period before they can develop alternative tests. I think US college exam systems are horribly flawed. For one, why are they run by a private non-profit rather than the government? They're also clearly not difficult enough, when at elite universities it's more a qualification than a determinant. In other nations,…

What are the odds that the UC system will make a harder test, and secondly, will actually get good applicants to take it?

CA is 10% of the US population. Also, UCLA and Berkeley are huge international schools (and have students from all 50 states).

A lot of people will take that test for sure. And if it turns out to be a good indicator, other states would probably accept the scores too.

Then California makes it free for CA residents and makes test prep part of the HS curriculum and you're on your way to solving a few systemic problems at once!

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#102

Post by cameldrv »

catalogia wrote: post #82
cameldrv wrote: post #56

This is very unfortunate. Yes, you can improve your SAT score by studying somewhat, but not massively. The College board has made a free online prep course with Kahn academy that achieves similar results to professional coaching if the student puts in the time. The fact that a student is willing to put in that time should be an indicator that they're likely to be successful in college. Where more of the abuse is is i…

I'm not convinced more time on tests will actually help somebody who doesn't legitimately have some relevant disability. Generally tests are structured so that if you know the material, you'll have plenty of time to spare. But if you don't know the material, it's unlikely you'll figure it out even if you're given twice as much time on the exam. It's not like they'll spend that extra hour teaching themselves the trigo…

This is not true for the SAT. Having extra time to double check answers or work out harder problems will definitely lead to a better score. Speed is intended to be a factor in the SAT.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#103

Post by anon102010 »

remarkEon wrote: post #73
MattGaiser wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That sound you hear is panicked elites, rushing to the "side door" of the UC system in an attempt to figure out how best to influence their kid's probability of admission It is far easier to influence extracurriculars and grades with money. I went to an expensive private school. Nobody there (nor their parents) would have opposed eliminating the SAT and replacing it with essays and activities.

Yeah, I think people are misinterpreting my comment as suggesting elite parents would've been against this - far from it. They absolutely wanted this because now it's easier to hide middling academic aptitude from admissions boards at elite schools. To be clear: Removing this test helps elite parents, and hurts those who can't afford spending money on "summer experiences" abroad or poverty tourism or whatever.

The most direct way to get admitted to an elite university is to have your parents be a major donor. This is not a secret, but explicit.

In the past it HAS been embarrassing if that admit came with a low or super low test score. So no question are the elites happy about this.

https://slate.com/business/2019/09/harvard-admissions-affirm...

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#104

Post by slg »

eej71 wrote: post #85
slg wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have WSJ subscription, but the part that cuts off right before the paywall says they are creating their own test. Maybe the hope is that they can create a test with less biases, but I have little optimism for a system that replaces two standardized and widely used tests with each school system creating their own versions as a replacement. This will make the process more complicated for all applicants and migh…

Exactly. "Creating their own test". Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Except if most other schools follow this path, the average student will go from 1 boss to 5+. That end result would almost unquestionably be worse for the kids this is trying to help.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#105

Post by usui »

harryh wrote: post #62
usui wrote: post #23

Yes, finally! As someone who underwent the standardized testing grind, I have been waiting for an announcement like this by a university system for years. I understand that there needs to be some standardized way to objectively score students, because allocating college seats to students seems to be an induced scarcity problem. However, as someone who scored highly and is currently studying computer science at UC Ber…

I ultimately feel like my time was wasted because the tests have almost no relation to any of my studies in class. The SAT is basically a somewhat disguised IQ test and I'm quite confident that intelligence was related to the studies in your classes.

I hated this admissions process so much that I did the ACT as early as I could, graduated high school a year early, and started college faster. As soon as I knew the battle was over, I knew I could drop the facade of playing the game. It felt so liberating to focus on what I deemed "more relevant" tasks.

My problem though is that I do not think educational reform is my passion. My passion aims at progressing in my chosen major, and I desperately wanted to show to colleges this passion, but my test score was the Great Filter that decided whether or not the other aspects to myself mattered, such as personality, side projects, or personal achievements. I did well in high school, so it's not that I dislike the system because I didn't perform well. I dislike the system because there is such a great disconnect between what is relevant to the college experience and what college admissions is based off.

In general, high SAT/ACT scores correlates with well-achieving college students, but I'm sure most begrudgingly pushed themselves to get over the IQ test hump.

I have thought about this issue a lot. The incongruence between college admissions and student achievement really compels me to strive for a better system so that future generations will not have to waste time like I did. However, I suspect that all the great people who could work on a better system do not stick around.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#106

Post by blululu »

kansface wrote: post #32
stu2b50 wrote: post #18

I think this is a good move overall. Remember, they're not phasing out tests entirely, it's over a 5 year period before they can develop alternative tests. I think US college exam systems are horribly flawed. For one, why are they run by a private non-profit rather than the government? They're also clearly not difficult enough, when at elite universities it's more a qualification than a determinant. In other nations,…

What are the odds that the UC system will make a harder test, and secondly, will actually get good applicants to take it?

You have to appreciate how big California is (>People than Canada, and any other US state). The UC system is actually the reason that the writing section was added to the SAT (the SAT II writing test used to be mandatory for UC admission). Everyone in my high school (public HS in CA) with even a chance at college admission applied to the UC system. Once you have that process in place it is easy to imagine other state universities copying the test.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#107

Post by _23sd »

jeffbee wrote: post #86
_23sd wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry that "holistic" admissions in universities with highly competitive admissions are already disadvantaging groups that aren't culturally aligned with university administrators and their donors: Asian Americans, people from the South and rural areas regardless of race, and people brought up in religious households where most time spent on "extracurricular activities" is church-related. I personally think that pe…

Did you just claim that Asian Americans are disadvantaged by UC admissions?

No, I referred to the broad category of "universities with highly competitive admissions". More of those are on the east coast than the west coast. California is a bit of an outlier in the US in both Asian American population and integration, so maybe UC is better and they'll be able to do away with standardized tests without hurting Asians too much. Anecdotally, though, people I know who grew up in California tend to think that UC lets in too many rich mainland Chinese and not enough from the large but poor and less integrated (vs. Vietnamese and Koreans) Filipino and Lao populations. Not sure how true that is, and I don't think UC records demographic info that granular, but as I mentioned the perception matters.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#108

Post by catalogia »

cameldrv wrote: post #102
catalogia wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced more time on tests will actually help somebody who doesn't legitimately have some relevant disability. Generally tests are structured so that if you know the material, you'll have plenty of time to spare. But if you don't know the material, it's unlikely you'll figure it out even if you're given twice as much time on the exam. It's not like they'll spend that extra hour teaching themselves the trigo…

This is not true for the SAT. Having extra time to double check answers or work out harder problems will definitely lead to a better score. Speed is intended to be a factor in the SAT.

Maybe so, it's been many years since I took the SAT and I can't remember much about that experience. But I think with respect to more general academic performance, extra time on tests won't usually help much. In my experience in college, very few of my peers ever used up the full hour or two given for exams. The ones that did seemed to be worrying themselves sick double-guessing themselves, and it never seemed to do them much good.

I had one friend who I suspected of having a bogus disability. He had rich parents and got double-time on exams. But it's a miracle he graduated at all, he seemed to always be on the brink of flunking out. I think that had a lot to do with his video game addiction that stopped him from studying much. He was a reasonably bright guy with a horrible work ethic, and I really don't think the extra time on exams helped him at all.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#109

Post by bananabreakfast »

Shoue wrote: post #58
awillen wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I agree with this 100% - these students are going to be compared to each other somehow, and it's always going to be imperfect and favor those who are better off. Still, these tests are at least relatively objective, and if you remove them the kids will be compared with less objective measures that allow for more bias to be introduced. The SAT/ACT are the worst form of college admission criteria very much in the…

Finland, often touted as the best in education, does not use SAT. The same can be said for many other European countries with excellent education. Are you implying there is no correlation? Have you looked at their systems before making a claim such as "haven't come up with anything better"?

European entrance exams, including Finland's, are far, far worse than the SAT. They are much more serious and shape one's life far more and enforce systemic bias to much higher extreme.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#110

Post by TuringNYC »

hpoe wrote: post #3

I know some people protest measures that are considered more "objective" over measures that are more "holistic", whether this is in school admittance, performance evaluation, promotion consideration, interviewing, determining welfare benefits, choosing who makes the rules and governs. However it has been my experience that whenever an explicit test or hierarchy is removed another shadow one builds up that is more sub…

"Holistic" often ends up meaning "I'll make up the rules, and you dont get to know what the rules are"

I'd rather take my chances on an unfair system with open rules than on an unfair system with opaque rules.

Edit: spelling

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