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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#101

Post by MR4D »

Retric wrote: post #88
c-smile wrote: post #67

I was comparing my math books (from Soviet university, Physics and Applied Math) and my son's from Canadian university (CS). Huge difference to be honest. Canadian ones (same as in US I think) were more like belletristic texts written with the goal to give basics without too much thought needed by the reader. In contrast you cannot approach Soviet text math book without serious thinking effort. You need to overcome s…

IMO, the point of textbooks is to educate people on some topic so making them as easy as possible seems like the correct choice. Outside of competitions, the value most people get from those courses is what them remember in 5+ years when their working not really the kind of symbol manipulation that makes can make things opaque. That said, soviet style education produced a lot of great mathematicians especially relati…

Somewhat cynically, I think the point of many textbooks is to make money for the authors.

There is no reason why a calculus book needs to cost $200 (in the 1990’s) and get refreshed every 2-3 years. That subject has been known for hundreds of years and they rob poor engineering and science student of that $200.

Sorry, I just have a bad taste in my mouth from crap like that in undergrad. Not saying you’re wrong, just think it’s more greed oriented than we’d like to think.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#102

Post by freepor »

gabaix wrote: post #97
ummwhat wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

Can you elaborate? I am interested in knowing about these programs for my son.

1) accelerated classes, 2) magnet schools, 3) statewide magnet schools, 4) high school research programs

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#103

Post by mafm »

geomark wrote: post #32

Here is an interesting paper [1](PDF) by a Russian mathematician who has taught mathematics in Russia, USA and Brazil. He compares the "very successful usage of word problems in Russia and contradictory, inefficient and often immature treatment of word problems in USA." [1] http://toomandre.com/travel/sweden05/WP-SWEDEN-NEW.pdf

That's a really interesting document.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#104

Post by to1y »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #75
p1esk wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, learning math was never more important to an average Russian than it was to an average American. An average Russian has never knew math any better than an average American. Source: attended school in both countries.

Are you in your early, early 20s? Because the Russian education system fell apart recently. Bribes and teachers moving to Europe and all that.

I'm 28. We emigrated to Australia(from Russia) when I was in approximately grade 3-4. I basically did no mathematical study for 4-5 years, the system was that far ahead. From family in Russia I hear that ridiculous amounts of homework(2hrs daily if you're on top of everything) is still a thing for young children although there's all sorts of strange pro-putin insertions in the curriculum but ultimately I don't know, it seems like Russia as a whole has very quickly lost the few positives the Soviet Union brought. I felt the quality of teaching was much better aswell. It seemed like many Australian teachers did not fully grasp many of the concepts themselves. From what I understand the American curriculum is even more relaxed so I'm not entirely sure where the above commenter gets their information from or if they're being entirely honest.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#105

Post by freepor »

5revive wrote: post #23

speaking from personal experience, the math I learned up to grade 4 in the Soviet Union was enough to glide through all of American high school math. And I wasn't in any way an advanced math student in the USSR. And I dont seem to recall any extensive, South Korean style homework.

You are probably really gifted. I don't think this is a typical experience, that a fourth grader in any country who doesn't do much homework knows most of US high school math.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#106

Post by c-smile »

Endlessly wrote: post #82
c-smile wrote: post #67

I was comparing my math books (from Soviet university, Physics and Applied Math) and my son's from Canadian university (CS). Huge difference to be honest. Canadian ones (same as in US I think) were more like belletristic texts written with the goal to give basics without too much thought needed by the reader. In contrast you cannot approach Soviet text math book without serious thinking effort. You need to overcome s…

Read, then reread, and still do not understand your point. Are you saying that in Russia, since the education was free that the goal of the textbooks was to make it hard to want to stay in school, if so, to me, seems like it’s unlikely, but possible. Putting aside non-Russian textbooks, what are you saying the intended reasoning of the textbook form was as it relates to Russian culture?

> was to make it hard to want to stay in school

That is probably not that intentionally. That is just a result of my own observations.

As of culture:

Canadian mother: John, you are so smart, why you cannot solve this quiz?

Russian mother: Ivan, why you cannot solve this quiz, are you stupid?

Anecdotic exaggeration of course, but there is definitely something in it.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#107

Post by Endlessly »

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

Curious, what do you and your peers that were feed into a well defined path so early make of it now understanding that is not how all children reach advanced skills in mathematics?

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#108

Post by tragiclos »

julianeon wrote: post #47
agumonkey wrote: post #12

I can only assume but culture makes things very different. I often said that French abstract algebra books stopped me from learning for 10 years (after many serious attempts). One book from Garreth Williams unlocked 80% of my issues. The shocking part was the approach. It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data. In French books it's all theorems and concepts. Learning curve to make a Haskell…

I feel like it's worth pointing out here, for Americans who don't know better (no blame implied), that the French have one of the best mathematical pipelines in the world. They have almost as many Nobels (13 vs. 11) despite having 1/5 the population. Guardian article about them here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/31/europa-french-... So please don't think France is a backwater that just doesn't know how…

There is no such thing as a Nobel prize for math.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#109

Post by geomark »

mafm wrote: post #103
geomark wrote: post #32

Here is an interesting paper [1](PDF) by a Russian mathematician who has taught mathematics in Russia, USA and Brazil. He compares the "very successful usage of word problems in Russia and contradictory, inefficient and often immature treatment of word problems in USA." [1] http://toomandre.com/travel/sweden05/WP-SWEDEN-NEW.pdf

That's a really interesting document.

I have been using it to supplement my son's maths lessons, using some of the problems the author gives as examples and creating more in similar style.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#110

Post by agumonkey »

wutbrodo wrote: post #76
agumonkey wrote: post #12

I can only assume but culture makes things very different. I often said that French abstract algebra books stopped me from learning for 10 years (after many serious attempts). One book from Garreth Williams unlocked 80% of my issues. The shocking part was the approach. It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data. In French books it's all theorems and concepts. Learning curve to make a Haskell…

> It also correlates with the pragmatic engineering of US history (electricity comes to mind). I got my math degree in California (at Cal) and the approach was a lot closer to what you describe French books as. Many of my courses were just a semester-long discussion of proof after proof, with breaks for exams that were more proofs.

Ah well my views were too biased then :)
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