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For Donald Knuth, good coding is synonymous with beautiful expression

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Re: For Donald Knuth, good coding is synonymous with beautiful expression

#101

Post by paganel »

nickdrozd wrote: post #94
bbbobbb wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean though? What programs? I can't write new programs at work where I maintain existing applications for the most part. What kind of programs, not for the sake of programs, can you actually write almost daily?

I think what he has in mind are small programs that do some kind of nontrivial computation without much in the way of IO or UI. For example, [1] is a program from December 2019 that "finds n-bit binary squares that are palindromic". A great way to get into this kind of thing if you're stuck for ideas is to go through the Online Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences [2] and just write little programs to print out the firs…

> is a program from December 2019 that "finds n-bit binary squares that are palindromic".

No dis-respect for Donald Knuth (who of course I found orders and orders of magnitude above programmers such as myself) and no dis-respect to people that found those types of programs interesting, but there are also programmers (like me) for whom those programs are just simple riddles, with almost no interest whatsoever.

They're like sudoku or crossroads, interesting and somehow intellectually stimulating but they don't help shape/change/modify the world around us. And I got hooked on programming when I realised how it could help me change the world around me and most of all how it could help me (and others) in trying to make sense on said world that surrounds us.

Re: For Donald Knuth, good coding is synonymous with beautiful expression

#102

Post by js8 »

gowld wrote: post #95
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should really post a source.

A source that disproves a made up unsourced story is fake?

To be fair, there exist sites like snopes.com which do this type of fact-checking. But I couldn't find it there.

Re: For Donald Knuth, good coding is synonymous with beautiful expression

#103

Post by rndgermandude »

7thaccount wrote: post #34
kragen wrote: post #32

A thing I never knew before: Donald Knuth, the paragon of scholarship and of a life well spent, not only cleans his own toilets but bought a specific janitorial uniform to make the process more efficient. I find this inspiring enough that I am going to clean my toilet now.

Who else would clean his toilets? Is he wealthy? I assumed no.

TAOCP sold more than 1 million copies over the years. Which doesn't make him Zuckerberg rich but wealthy enough to afford a house keeper if he wanted.

Re: For Donald Knuth, good coding is synonymous with beautiful expression

#104

Post by barrkel »

yesenadam wrote: post #33
barrkel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about defining your own idea of success in life? Taking your utility function, your definition of success, from someone else, is only one step removed from being jealous of someone on Instagram. Think, and judge, for yourself.

Oddly, this comment seems mainly to put down the GP precisely for thinking and judging for themselves. Please allow people to like and utilize the good ideas of others. Thankfully, we don't have to invent every wheel we use.

Eh. The direction irked me, smacked too much of an objective measure of people's lives.

Re: For Donald Knuth, good coding is synonymous with beautiful expression

#105

Post by rantwasp »

cafard wrote: post #43
rantwasp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my personal favorite (which I don’t know where I picked up from is): the difference between good programmers and average programmers is in how they cut corners. average ones will mostly walk themselves into a corner where the amount of effort required to fix it means it will never get fixed. good programmers will leave it such a way that it can be improved/fixed given more time.

There is a statement very like this, about construction workers--masons or carpenters--in Christopher Alexander's A Pattern Language .

need to check it out. thank you.

Re: For Donald Knuth, good coding is synonymous with beautiful expression

#106

Post by barrkel »

larntz wrote: post #22
alfonsodev wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be success in art but failing in life, by the quote definition, I infer he’s equating success in life with your minimum quality of life indicators being as high as posible, if I got it right.

That's how I read it also. Take for example Kurt Cobain (whatever you think of him and his music). He had major success in music, but his life was a disaster and not something I'd hope for a loved one. I do agree that it seems like the best art is created by "tortured artists".

Do you think he'd be ok with the opposite - a bland, contained and long life?

What is life for? There are fundamental questions here and I don't think the answers are obvious as you seem to think.

Re: For Donald Knuth, good coding is synonymous with beautiful expression

#107

Post by samatman »

paganel wrote: post #101
nickdrozd wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what he has in mind are small programs that do some kind of nontrivial computation without much in the way of IO or UI. For example, [1] is a program from December 2019 that "finds n-bit binary squares that are palindromic". A great way to get into this kind of thing if you're stuck for ideas is to go through the Online Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences [2] and just write little programs to print out the firs…

> is a program from December 2019 that "finds n-bit binary squares that are palindromic". No dis-respect for Donald Knuth (who of course I found orders and orders of magnitude above programmers such as myself) and no dis-respect to people that found those types of programs interesting, but there are also programmers (like me) for whom those programs are just simple riddles, with almost no interest whatsoever. They're…

Well, yes, of course.

The question was about the sort of little programs someone could write daily, and the answer resembles crosswords or sudoku, which many people are in the habit of completing once a day.

Would completing one integer sequence algorithm (brilliant suggestion btw!) change the world around you? No, of course not.

Would it make you a better programmer, though? Certainly it would. Which would mean, when you settle down, crack your knuckles, and start changing the world, you'd do a better job of it.

Your objection strikes me as that of a hunter who won't go to the range, because when he fires his rifle, he wants to put meat on the table!

Re: For Donald Knuth, good coding is synonymous with beautiful expression

#108

Post by remcob »

paganel wrote: post #101
nickdrozd wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what he has in mind are small programs that do some kind of nontrivial computation without much in the way of IO or UI. For example, [1] is a program from December 2019 that "finds n-bit binary squares that are palindromic". A great way to get into this kind of thing if you're stuck for ideas is to go through the Online Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences [2] and just write little programs to print out the firs…

> is a program from December 2019 that "finds n-bit binary squares that are palindromic". No dis-respect for Donald Knuth (who of course I found orders and orders of magnitude above programmers such as myself) and no dis-respect to people that found those types of programs interesting, but there are also programmers (like me) for whom those programs are just simple riddles, with almost no interest whatsoever. They're…

> They're like sudoku or crossroads, interesting and somehow intellectually stimulating but they don't help shape/change/modify the world around us.

I don't think this is accurate: sudoku and crossroads have deterministic known solutions. Solving them is a mostly mechanical feat and indeed somewhat useless beyond the joy of solving.

In contrast, the challenge of creating these sorts of programs is creative and open ended. It is very well possible that someone will come up with an even more efficient algorithm. Or a much simpler one. Or just a completely new strategy.

As to the usefulness, these little toy programs are a constant source of inspiration for solving actual real world problems. A perfect example of this is Algorithm X. One of Knuth's toys that solves Sudoku puzzles. The same algorithm is easily adapted to solve scheduling problems and actually is a major innovation.

Re: For Donald Knuth, good coding is synonymous with beautiful expression

#109

Post by nybble41 »

gowld wrote: post #95
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should really post a source.

A source that disproves a made up unsourced story is fake?

The story could still be made up, but the source for the quote is this book:

Art & Fear: Observations On the Perils (and Rewards) of Artmaking

by David Bayes and Ted Orland

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Fear-Observations-Rewards-Artmaki...

Re: For Donald Knuth, good coding is synonymous with beautiful expression

#110

Post by kragen »

rndgermandude wrote: post #103
7thaccount wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who else would clean his toilets? Is he wealthy? I assumed no.

TAOCP sold more than 1 million copies over the years. Which doesn't make him Zuckerberg rich but wealthy enough to afford a house keeper if he wanted.

I haven't asked him but I don't think his book earnings are significant compared to his salary and pension.
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