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230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question

signal.org

101–110 of 178 posts

Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question

#101
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram does the same thing. In fact, so does Instagram, which I find most egregious, since it asks for your number for 2FA purposes then notifies anyone who has your number saved that you’ve joined. Every coach, recruiter, drug dealer or one night stand I’ve had in my life doesn’t need to know when I sign up to Instagram. Some of them might not have even had my real name until they got that notification. IMO this s…

That's almost worse than having no volume control in their interface, even for their desktop site.

[deleted]

Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question

#102

I thought it was interesting when Twitch partners started talking about a Twitch policy that seems to hold the partner responsible for moderating their own chat. That is, if you are a partner and you have community members posting prohibited content into your Twitch chat then you stand to pay the penalty through a ban or losing your partnership. You are forced to moderate your own chat thereby relieving Twitch of hav…

Indeed. The problem with imposing liability on moderators is that they're already doing about as well as they reasonably can at a job that isn't easy. Nobody wants a platform full of spam and disinformation.

But it's inherently a difficult trade off between heavy-handed censorship that catches too many dolphins in the shark net vs. not catching strictly 100% of the bad stuff. If you start imposing liability on the moderators then it forces the trade off into an all or nothing -- either they give up and stop moderating whatsoever or they have to murder all the dolphins because now a single shark sighting puts them out of business and you can't always tell the difference.

It also eliminates the possibility for different platforms to experiment with making the trade off in different ways. Maybe The New York Times wants to have an editor read every user comment before posting it but Reddit has a stronger commitment to free speech. Shouldn't we have both and let the different readers make their choices? Isn't that better than locking in the same compromised criteria for everybody?

Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question

#103
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sue John Doe, and ask the court to issue a subpoena to the forum for identifying information, and then to the ISP, and once you have that, add the account holder as a defendant to the suit. It's not fast, and it's not easy, but such is life.

I'm really coming more from the perspective of valuing anonymity. I'd prefer a world where you simply can't sue the guy, and have to suck it up that people say things you don't like.

It's all fine and dandy until somebody has it in with you and suddenly the first search result on your real name says you're a pedophile.

Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question

#104

Is signal still demonstrating their commitment to my privacy by notifying everyone with my number in their phone contacts who is also on signal when I join ?

Telegram does the same thing. In fact, so does Instagram, which I find most egregious, since it asks for your number for 2FA purposes then notifies anyone who has your number saved that you’ve joined. Every coach, recruiter, drug dealer or one night stand I’ve had in my life doesn’t need to know when I sign up to Instagram. Some of them might not have even had my real name until they got that notification. IMO this s…

I think the issue here is that Instagram has a different idea of the importance of a phone number than you do. They consider a phone number to be more personal information than your full name. Your phone number is also trivially tied to your full name anyway, unless you paid for a burner phone in cash wearing a ski mask.

Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question

#105
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sue John Doe, and ask the court to issue a subpoena to the forum for identifying information, and then to the ISP, and once you have that, add the account holder as a defendant to the suit. It's not fast, and it's not easy, but such is life.

I'm really coming more from the perspective of valuing anonymity. I'd prefer a world where you simply can't sue the guy, and have to suck it up that people say things you don't like.

You may not have thought this through. Defamation isn't people saying things you don't like. It's people saying things which are untrue, and cost you your livelihood. You could invest a lifetime in building the respect of your peers only to have it snuffed out by a competitor running a smear campaign.

Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question

#106

Is signal still demonstrating their commitment to my privacy by notifying everyone with my number in their phone contacts who is also on signal when I join ?

Why is this downvoted?

(Four hours after your comment and it wasn't just downvoted: it has now been flagged, marked dead, and is unavailable for anyone not logged in and you can no longer reply to it.)

Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, and they wouldn't be by any informed understanding of the law. That's not how the law has ever worked in any developed society. Generally, law has both the concept of intent and reasonableness. As such, a company that inadequately polices malicious and abusive content because that content is wildly profitable (hi Google and Facebook), we should have the legal ability to fine these companies into oblivion, because…

> No, and they wouldn't be by any informed understanding of the law. You are misinformed about the history of 230. 230 was proposed exactly because the law was interpreted the way you're saying it wouldn't be. From Wikipedia below, added emphasis mine: > This concern was raised by legal challenges against CompuServe and Prodigy, early service providers at this time. CompuServe stated they would not attempt to regulat…

So this is the thing that is really confusing me: isn't Signal like CompuServe? Signal doesn't moderate my content and in fact can't; so why would a repeal of Section 230 matter to Signal? And like, yes: maybe the people at Signal personally care... but that's not how this article is written. I feel like most of the people who are super knee-jerk pro-230 are ignoring this precedent you have pointed to of CompuServe: if you build something that really and truly is a distribution platform, shouldn't that be OK?

Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question

#108
post #60

Plenty of people have complex opinions about 230, but it's a law that says, if you see a comment that defames you, sue the person who made it, it's got nothing to do with e.g. whoever runs the skateboarding forum. Who opposes this? It's just codifying the common sense understanding of the internet.

If I'm reading it right, the article agrees with you. It's saying that they want 230's protection, but the EARN IT act will take it away from people doing end-to-end protection like Signal.

Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question

#109
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh... disagree? Even a 5 person startup should be responsible for every single thing their users post? Or do you want some arbitrary line of employees above which it’s illegal and below which it’s fine?

I'll refer you to my response here, on why people claiming that's the alternative isn't really accurate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22815922 But no, there shouldn't be an arbitrary line. Judges can make fair determinations on when a company is or is not doing a reasonable job controlling abuse on their platform, and the profit motivations behind those decisions.

The fact that you think this is going to get decided by a judge is at the root of your misunderstanding.

Nobody can afford to be defending the thousands of cases that would be brought against platforms over user-generated content if there wasn't a simple knock-out rule to get them dismissed. It doesn't matter if you're doing something reasonable, somebody would argue that you're not because there's still enough chance they might win and get awarded millions of dollars. And even if you win you still had to spend a million dollars on lawyers to prove it to a judge, and then someone else files a new lawsuit next week.

So the platforms can't just be right, they have to be so far away from the line of wrongness that they can get claims against them dismissed out of hand. But since it's inherently a trade off between false positives and false negatives, getting right up next to the line without crossing it is what you really want (that's the middle ground), and then that's off the table. Which leaves avoiding liability by not moderating at all or avoiding liability by moderating hyper-aggressively beyond all reason, since those are the two options to keep it from needing to be decided by a judge (which is the thing that bankrupts you).

Re: 230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this have to do with Section 230?

The moment someone points out Google makes a huge amount of money on scams and malware, and due to Section 230, can't really be held responsible for it.

Fining Google doesn't help the problem there, you would want to work with Google to find out who made the deceptive ad and deal with them so they can't continue on to hurt more people
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