Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021 • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#101

Post by scarface74 » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 8:52 PM UTC

pmontra wrote: post #79

strategarius wrote: post #60

I'm curious what Parallels going to do. Running Windows and Linux applications with almost native integration into OSX ecosystem worth a lot, especially with all benefits of hardware virtualization. In theory PC could be virtualized on ARM, however software virtualization only. Going to watch the process. In general, Windows and Linux support ARM as well, not sure if hardware virtualization for ARM exist though

Maybe backend developers for Intel Linux servers will fire up a VM on AWS/Azure/Google and work there. There will be some cross platform compatibility issues. Interpreted languages hide the CPU (think Python, Ruby, Node) but their extensions in C could need some extra work that not all of them require now. On the other side there will be the rise of the ARM servers. Apple is notoriously not interested in running serv…

Packages with native dependencies already require a recompile to run between Windows and Linux. Right now, I write Python scripts on a Windows laptop, push the changes and the build server (well actually a Linux Docker container using AWS CodeBuild) builds and deploys the package to Linux servers.

Apple already has an x86 build chain that cross compiled to ARM.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#102

Post by scarface74 » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 8:57 PM UTC

libertine wrote: post #27

jshaqaw wrote: post #8

The question is as users should we care? If this is cheaper for Apple will they actually lower product prices or just enhance their own margins. Will this result in any superior performance on a cost-adjusted basis?

>If this is cheaper for Apple will they actually lower product prices or just enhance their own margins. If this would happen, most definitely the improvement on margins. Why would they lower prices?

We have an existence proof. The iPads are already a better value when you compare price/performance.

Even the low end $329 iPad can hold its own performance wise to low and midrange laptops. The high end iPad Pros are cheaper and faster than lowend and midrange laptops.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#103

Post by scarface74 » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

wyre wrote: post #97

scarface74 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You act as if this is the first time that Apple has done a transition or the first time that the aforementioned companies have made the transition. Each of them have made the transition from 68K -> PPC -> OS X -> x86.

I only know about the transition to x86 and from what I remember the benefit was the same architecture as Windows. Since them OSX has gained a lot of market share. Moving to ARM is definitely a step backwards in that regard. I don't know anything about the previous transitions. I don't think transitioning to ARM is a bad choice given the benefits, but a lot of serious (and casual) users are going to be very unhappy t…

The Mac was already on an upward trajectory before the x86 transition. OS X hasn’t really gained that much marketshare. Besides the “beleaguered years”, Macs have historically trended at around 10% market share. They actually had more marketshare in the early 90s before Windows 95.

Apple has done this three times if you include the Apple //e transition. Each time they brought customer’s along.

The first transition from 68K to PPC, almost all of their revenue came from Macs. The second time about half (the other half was iPods). Now it’s less than 10%. It’s much less risky this time.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#104

Post by philwelch » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #71

EduardoBautista wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM Macs are one of the things I don't want to be an early adopter of. I am going to stay with Intel as long as possible but I am excited about making the switch to ARM once it's shown to not be a hassle.

This is Apple we're talking about -- and Apple is what other OEMs want to be when they grow up. Not only will the Apple-designed ARM CPUs perform at or above the level of a similarly-specced Intel machine, but the ISA transition will be seamless , with a nearly-invisible Intel binary compatibility layer that does on-the-fly JITing. Otherwise, they simply won't release it at all.

I think this is a little optimistic. Apple doesn’t have the cachet it did ten years ago and their attention to detail on the Mac platform has slipped a hell of a lot. They would probably have an ISA emulation to support x86 apps, but that will likely be deprecated in a couple of years.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#105

Post by philwelch » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

ianai wrote: post #62

_ph_ wrote: post #32

I am torn, whenever I hear the rumors about the ARM Macs. On the one side, I am terribly excited from a technology perspective. I grew up with homecomputers in the 80ies, and in the 90ies, all Unix-workstations had several different, non-x86 architectures. So any disruption of the x86-monoculture is interesting. Also, looking at the performance of the iPhone and iPad, I think Apple has the potential to create some gr…

They could make an x86 daughterboard for the Mac Pro. Plenty of space for that and it’s been done decades ago. Or a third party could. I wonder whether they’ve got any special killer apps in mind for the desktop and MacBook ARM machines. They could theoretically customize them greatly since they’re designing the architecture. Also wonder whether they view keeping the unix developer pipeline.

iOS development and, potentially, better support for Catalyst are the obvious pluses I haven’t seen mentioned yet.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#106

Post by rgovostes » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

dhhwrongagain wrote: post #85

Get ready to not have root access on your laptop. The writing is on the wall: * signed software restrictions * no kernel extensions * SIP Dropping x86 compatibility will be the last nail in the coffin. Buy the x86 platform if you value your freedom, buy arm if you want a larger form factor smartphone

There's no evidence for this. They could remove root access now on x86 if they wanted to. They didn't have to spend engineering hours making it possible to disable SIP when they turned it on. Most software signature restrictions that have been added to macOS to date are easily disabled, and besides that have nothing to do with x86 vs ARM.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#107

Post by rado » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

dzhiurgis wrote: post #99

_ph_ wrote: post #32

I am torn, whenever I hear the rumors about the ARM Macs. On the one side, I am terribly excited from a technology perspective. I grew up with homecomputers in the 80ies, and in the 90ies, all Unix-workstations had several different, non-x86 architectures. So any disruption of the x86-monoculture is interesting. Also, looking at the performance of the iPhone and iPad, I think Apple has the potential to create some gr…

Apples biggest debt was developers who rely on vm’s and brew. They’ve already booted them about while producing laptops without a reliable keyboard for 4 years. ARM macbooks will be for youtube influencers. Sure they’ll be able to edit 8K (and when uploaded to youtube they can’t even view it themselves). Devs need AMD.

You’ve tried the Arm MacBook?

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#108

Post by rmsaksida » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #71

EduardoBautista wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM Macs are one of the things I don't want to be an early adopter of. I am going to stay with Intel as long as possible but I am excited about making the switch to ARM once it's shown to not be a hassle.

This is Apple we're talking about -- and Apple is what other OEMs want to be when they grow up. Not only will the Apple-designed ARM CPUs perform at or above the level of a similarly-specced Intel machine, but the ISA transition will be seamless , with a nearly-invisible Intel binary compatibility layer that does on-the-fly JITing. Otherwise, they simply won't release it at all.

> Not only will the Apple-designed ARM CPUs perform at or above the level of a similarly-specced Intel machine, but the ISA transition will be seamless, with a nearly-invisible Intel binary compatibility layer that does on-the-fly JITing

Apple didn't bother with 32-bit compatibility for Catalina which would have been much easier to implement. You're being way too optimistic. Apple doesn't care about backwards compatibility.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#109

Post by philwelch » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #7

Still to be confirmed, I don't usually take "analyst predictions" too seriously but I found this interesting: "Apple will no longer be held to the whims of Intel" Apple switched to Intel because IBM couldn't ship a good enough G5 for notebooks and for scale issues. Given that Intel is not on track with 7nm and rumours of their CEO being seen in Taiwan the other day it seems history is repeating itself.

It’s not just that IBM couldn’t ship a mobile-friendly G5, but that Motorola couldn’t ship any improvement over the G4 fast enough because laptops were an afterthought for their primarily embedded-centric business.

Intel is one of two suppliers for nearly every laptop CPU sold today. If Apple was just disappointed with Intel they could switch to AMD instead. Either way they wouldn’t fall behind the rest of the personal computer market as they were at the end of the PPC era.

Instead, they’re making basically the same bet they made with PowerPC—that a different CPU architecture can significantly outperform x86. Last time, it turned out that Intel and AMD, by focusing on the PC market, could keep up with and ultimately outperform Motorola, since Motorola was more focused on embedded systems. This time, it’s Apple producing the chips, except Apple themselves are also more focused on mobile devices than they are on personal computers. So it will be interesting to see if this bet pays off this time around.

Re: Apple to debut multiple ARM MacBook, desktop models in 2021

#110

Post by dzhiurgis » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 9:48 PM UTC

arikr wrote: post #14

davidgerard wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, I was looking for something more than a single analyst's note here.

Kuo has an excellent track record on Apple predictions from what I understand.

Who is him anyway? I’ve never been able to trace that.