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Tokyo High Court slashes damages to Fukushima nuclear disaster evacuees

japantimes.co.jp

101–106 of 106 posts

Re: Tokyo High Court slashes damages to Fukushima nuclear disaster evacuees

#101
post #98
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see you've never personally experienced the US military I see you haven't bothered to actually look at the record. The U.S. Navy has decades of operating many nuclear reactors on ships and submarines with no incidents. > there's plenty of non-compliance and outright malfeasance without accountability Not in the U.S. Navy's nuclear program. Even what would be considered minor infractions in other parts of the mili…

The original comment was about the "US military" and not just the Navy. I'm assuming you're speaking from personal experience and that's why you mention the Navy specifically. The Navy does a great job, especially as it pertains to complex industrial systems. However, each branch and each unit has a unique culture and from my personal experience, the closer one gets to combat arms, the less bureaucratic and more "fle…

> The original comment was about the "US military" and not just the Navy.

Yes, but it was about the military in the context of handling nuclear reactors and nuclear materials, and the US Navy is the only service that does that. (The Army did during WWII because it ran the Manhattan Project, but that was a one-time event and not representative of long-term practice.) So the Navy is the only relevant service.

> I'm assuming you're speaking from personal experience

Yes, as I've mentioned several times in various posts in this discussion (not all in response to you).

> Maybe your criteria is different for what constitutes a mishap

I was speaking specifically about reactor incidents, which is what Fukushima was. If you include releases of radioactive material that do not involve any issue with a reactor, yes, there have been incidents, some of which you note. A similar statement to the one I made about reactor incidents also holds for those: the total harm done by all such incidents involving radioactive materials is orders of magnitude less than the total harm done by releases of materials connected with fossil fuels (oil spills, coal ash, chemical spills, etc.; coal ash, btw, is more highly radioactive than many types of radioactive waste from nuclear reactors).

> I'm not convinced it's necessarily a byproduct of organizational structure of "chain of command"

I think the primary factor is simple unwillingness to tolerate any deviation from proper procedures. The existence of a military chain of command might not be essential for that, but it certainly makes it a lot easier. It would be very difficult for a civilian organization to justify summarily firing a high-level official over a single administrative error, as I saw done with a Navy officer (I mentioned this in another post elsewhere in this discussion).

Re: Tokyo High Court slashes damages to Fukushima nuclear disaster evacuees

#102
post #101
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment was about the "US military" and not just the Navy. I'm assuming you're speaking from personal experience and that's why you mention the Navy specifically. The Navy does a great job, especially as it pertains to complex industrial systems. However, each branch and each unit has a unique culture and from my personal experience, the closer one gets to combat arms, the less bureaucratic and more "fle…

> The original comment was about the "US military" and not just the Navy. Yes, but it was about the military in the context of handling nuclear reactors and nuclear materials, and the US Navy is the only service that does that. (The Army did during WWII because it ran the Manhattan Project, but that was a one-time event and not representative of long-term practice.) So the Navy is the only relevant service. > I'm ass…

Thanks for taking the time to respond and add relevant personal experience to the discussion.

> handling nuclear reactors and nuclear materials, and the US Navy is the only service that does that

That's not entirely true. I'd be willing to bet the Navy has the most experience in this regard, the Army still runs reactors and the Air Force handles nuclear material. Both investigating implementing reactors in future plans:

"Fast Burst Reactor (FBR) — The FBR is an unmoderated and unreflected cylindrical assembly of uranium and molybdenum alloy. The FBR produces high-yield pulses of microsecond width, as well as long-term, steady state radiation, to closely simulate the neutron radiation environment produced by a fission weapon"[1]

"The Defense Department is looking to develop miniature nuclear reactors to supply power to domestic military bases in an emergency, and later to power expeditionary forces"[2]

The other services are also heavily involved in National Laboratories that do a lot of the nuclear research for the federal government.

>the total harm done by all such incidents involving radioactive materials is orders of magnitude less than the total harm done by releases of materials connected with fossil fuels

Point noted and I don't know enough to disagree. But the issue wasn't which form of energy was the most safe, it was whether the military is inherently better at managing such systems because of their organizational structure. The military may foster accountability but I don't personally think this is attributable to a chain of command, but rather due to the emphasis on leadership principles and mature processes. There's plenty of civilian organizations that have a well-structured chain of command.

>I think the primary factor is simple unwillingness to tolerate any deviation from proper procedures. The existence of a military chain of command might not be essential for that, but it certainly makes it a lot easier.

Agree 100%. Out of curiosity was that officer actually fired (discharged/loss of commission) or reassigned? Reassignment is pretty common on the civilian side when people show themselves incapable of executing duties appropriately.

[1] https://www.wsmr.army.mil/testcenter/dir/Pages/Survivability...

[2] https://www.airforcemag.com/pentagon-working-on-mini-nuclear...

Re: Tokyo High Court slashes damages to Fukushima nuclear disaster evacuees

#103
post #102
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The original comment was about the "US military" and not just the Navy. Yes, but it was about the military in the context of handling nuclear reactors and nuclear materials, and the US Navy is the only service that does that. (The Army did during WWII because it ran the Manhattan Project, but that was a one-time event and not representative of long-term practice.) So the Navy is the only relevant service. > I'm ass…

Thanks for taking the time to respond and add relevant personal experience to the discussion. > handling nuclear reactors and nuclear materials, and the US Navy is the only service that does that That's not entirely true. I'd be willing to bet the Navy has the most experience in this regard, the Army still runs reactors and the Air Force handles nuclear material. Both investigating implementing reactors in future pla…

> the Army still runs reactors

I wasn't aware that they were currently running any. You are right that I left out that the Army did used to have a small program, though--none of their reactors were more than about 10 MW, IIRC--but I thought it was shut down in the 1970s and they never had many reactor-years of operation.

> the Air Force handles nuclear material

Yes, fair point, the Air Force does handle nuclear weapons and associated materials.

> Both investigating implementing reactors in future plans

Yes, true. I've thought for a while that the obvious way for the US government to encourage nuclear power as well as generate some revenue independently of taxes would be to build a reactor for every US military base and sell the excess power generated back to the grid.

> the issue wasn't which form of energy was the most safe, it was whether the military is inherently better at managing such systems because of their organizational structure

If you left out "because of their organizational structure", I would agree with your description of the issue. I don't think organizational structure is the only relevant factor.

> Out of curiosity was that officer actually fired (discharged/loss of commission) or reassigned?

Reassigned, to a different command (not a ship), to duties not involving nuclear in any way. (I may have said "fired" in one of my posts describing this, but in military lingo that means "reassigned". Actually discharging someone requires a court martial, and the rules for when that can be done are much stricter.)

> Reassignment is pretty common on the civilian side when people show themselves incapable of executing duties appropriately.

But the definition of "incapable of executing duties appropriately" is very different in the civilian world. A minor administrative error wouldn't qualify. (By "minor administrative error" I mean an error of the order of "a single document was not filled out correctly", not an error of the order of "many things over an extended period of time were not done correctly". The latter might get you reassigned in the civilian world; the former won't.)

Re: Tokyo High Court slashes damages to Fukushima nuclear disaster evacuees

#104
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What was the Thresher, SeaLab 1963? Those were what the Navy calls subsafe incidents, not nuclear incidents. There was no problem with the reactor. The problem was what one of my Navy instructors called "water in the people tank"--a flaw in the welds that seal the interior of the ship or structure against water pressure from the outside. The Navy took major steps to improve the QA on those welds as a result of thes…

But wasn’t scramming the reactor too quickly a crucial part of the incident? The procedures were inadequate

> wasn’t scramming the reactor too quickly a crucial part of the incident?

Scramming and then having no procedure for a rapid restart, yes. But that's not a reactor safety incident.

Re: Tokyo High Court slashes damages to Fukushima nuclear disaster evacuees

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The increased economic opportunity is part of the crowd package. Why don't you think it counts?

In the late 19th and early 20th century, millions of people moved to industrial centers like London, Manchester (U.K.) and Pittsburgh (USA) for work. These cities were extremely polluted, often to the point where you couldn't see the sun during the day. The exact same thing happened over the past few decades in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_London https://popularpittsburgh.com/darkhistory/ https:…

I'm impressed but also confused that the calim nobody would chose to do something is being supported only with evidence that millions of people chose to do that thing despite exposing themselves to the negative effects you cite.

This is how powerful the draw of cities are. People will happily sacrifice seeing the sun for an opportunity to live and work in a city - if the alternative was living in the country.

And I think it is pretty obvious that between city-no-sun, country and city-sun the ranking is going to be:

1) City-sun

2) City-no-sun

3) Country

By the numbers, nobody chooses to live in the country. Your counterargument is essentially that people have good reasons to live in the city - yeah, that is obvious. That is why they are making the choice that they are. I dunno what this 'neutral choice' concept is but I don't believe it is a real thing. Yeah they move for economic opportunities. That is why sterilising large areas is irrelevant. People have been tested and nobody cares about the environment when the economy is on the line; they are all going to be crammed together in cities.

Re: Tokyo High Court slashes damages to Fukushima nuclear disaster evacuees

#106
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the late 19th and early 20th century, millions of people moved to industrial centers like London, Manchester (U.K.) and Pittsburgh (USA) for work. These cities were extremely polluted, often to the point where you couldn't see the sun during the day. The exact same thing happened over the past few decades in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_London https://popularpittsburgh.com/darkhistory/ https:…

I'm impressed but also confused that the calim nobody would chose to do something is being supported only with evidence that millions of people chose to do that thing despite exposing themselves to the negative effects you cite. This is how powerful the draw of cities are. People will happily sacrifice seeing the sun for an opportunity to live and work in a city - if the alternative was living in the country. And I t…

Prior to the modern age, it was considered more desirable to live in the country.

> By the numbers, nobody chooses to live in the country.

Again, by the contemporary numbers. Contemporary trends cannot be translated into broad sociological statements about human beings. This is basic historical knowledge. In the US alone, the return to cities is a fairly recent phenomenon. Cities were considered undesirable and suburbs were heralded as having a better quality of life as recently as the 90s.

Historically, movement to cities has been driven almost entirely by economics. No one wanted to live in a cramped city slum and there was no "choice" between two equal options, one in the city and one in the country. It was more a choice of continued rural poverty, bordering on starvation, or a polluted, miserable, economically-better existence in a city.

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