For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality • Hacker News Board

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#101

Post by unishark » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:58 AM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #98

unishark wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's unethical and classist to pick-and-choose who gets life-saving cancer treatment based on their income. Since we're talking ethics, do you also think universal healthcare should be provided by wealthy nations to all the world? Otherwise we are just picking and choosing based on where someone happens to be born, aren't we?

That question doesn't matter because national sovereignty would prevent other countries from doing that even if they wanted to. It's not a program it's even possible to consider without some really elaborate treaties that many countries would reject. At the core of it what you're basically arguing is that nations are unethical because what citizenship someone holds influences things like their access to health care,…

The logistics don't seem difficult at all to me if there's a will. People tend to be pretty accommodating when it comes to letting you give them money. At the very least, countries can offer a "medical visa" option to visitors.

As for national borders being unethical by nature, if that logically follows then why not?

I certainly don't consider ethics a source of "gotcha" questions, but of real conundrums.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#102

Post by revolu123 » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 12:04 PM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #41

totorovirus wrote: post #28

One of the most interesting culture in South korea is that under treated low class people (dirt-spoon class) don't really try disrupt current society model. To elaborate, people put poverty on their own responsibility rather than complaining about structural inequality. The rage towards class inequality is emitted at competition for higher ranked university and the reward of being in a prestigious college.

Always and everywhere the people at the bottom of the class hierarchy have enough problems that complaining about inequality or engaging in politics is not a priority. Social unrest is always about conflict within the elite or wannabe elite. The American Revolution was led by the richest of Americans. The French Revolution was led by the highly educated as was the Russian one. We have one historical example of a succ…

As this has generated some debate, I wanted to recommend The Revolutions Podcast https://www.revolutionspodcast.com/ which I think I first heard about on another HN thread.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#103

Post by teshier-A » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 12:24 PM UTC

hristov wrote: post #20

httpz wrote: post #16

One unrealistic part about the poor family in the movie is that, there is no way a family of four healthy adults can be that poor in S.Korea (unless they have a large debt payment). If all four of them worked 40hrs/wk doing a minimum wage job ($7/hr in S.Korea), it puts them around $59k/yr, which is above the median household income.

I think the main point is they couldn't get jobs. At one point in the movie they said that every job opening for a security guard draws 500 applicants with college degrees. None of them had college degrees. I am not sure what the actual job situation in S. Korea is. Perhaps someone that lives there can enlighten us.

They are smart enough to outsmart anyone but not to get jobs ? As always in Korean movies the protagonists had to be smart. It seems that they are not interested in anyone who's even slightly dumb.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#104

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 12:25 PM UTC

anonsivalley652 wrote: post #59

danans wrote: post #3

As much as it pointed out the serious inequality issues facing South Korea, the movie also highlighted the fact that the poor in South Korea have access to healthcare free at the point of service. It also depicted young people who, despite their poverty, had enough access to schooling that they could serve as English tutors to the wealthy (yes, I'm aware that SK's education system has other issues related to it being…

Wow, that's cool. I wonder if vision, dental, medical, hospital, prescriptions and mental are all covered without fees? The very poor in the US only get Medicaid (rarely Medicare, which requires paying into Social Security long enough). Medicaid: - It doesn't pay doctors, specialists and dentists enough, so they often treat patients poorly (spend less time, not thorough enough, don't order necessary tests). - Medicat…

> Wow, that's cool. I wonder if vision, dental, medical, hospital, prescriptions and mental are all covered without fees?

In Poland they are. With fixed monthly fee proportional to your income, 9%.

7.5% of it you can directly deduct from your income tax. So it's effectively 1.25% of your income.

The only additional money is for drugs (prescription ones too), but if the drug is expensive and you have a prescription you pay vastly reduced price, 50%, 30%, fixed low price, or free.

Of course there are wait times and you don't get top of the line materials so middle class people prefer to do dental and vision privately. No insurance needed there. You just pay 30$ to have your tooth fixed or 50$ for eye exam and new glasses if you pick cheap frames.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#105

Post by bildung » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 12:32 PM UTC

2drew3 wrote: post #13

For those who watched the movie, I found the ending interesting. I won't spoil it for everyone else, but Bong Joon-ho made his perspective unambiguous: he's not a believer in social mobility in Korea. 6 of the top 10 Forbes list in Korea are self-made; the other 4 inherited their wealth. In contrast, 10 out of top 10 are self-made in the US. There are better metrics to compare social mobility (this one was convenient…

> 10 out of top 10 are self-made in the US

Those seem to be outliers: "Of the over 60 percent [of the Forbes 400] remaining, all grew up in substantial privilege." https://inequality.org/research/selfmade-myth-hallucinating-...

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#106

Post by sl120 » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 12:32 PM UTC

2drew3 wrote: post #13

For those who watched the movie, I found the ending interesting. I won't spoil it for everyone else, but Bong Joon-ho made his perspective unambiguous: he's not a believer in social mobility in Korea. 6 of the top 10 Forbes list in Korea are self-made; the other 4 inherited their wealth. In contrast, 10 out of top 10 are self-made in the US. There are better metrics to compare social mobility (this one was convenient…

Korea is a highly hierarchical, relationship-driven society on top of the extreme competition. It's increasingly a place where you need the perfect marks + the right family background + some starting money to get anywhere.

In practice, it's almost impossible to really climb in society and unfortunately this situation is describing more and more the US as well...

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#107

Post by Diggsey » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 12:35 PM UTC

unishark wrote: post #101

kevingadd wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That question doesn't matter because national sovereignty would prevent other countries from doing that even if they wanted to. It's not a program it's even possible to consider without some really elaborate treaties that many countries would reject. At the core of it what you're basically arguing is that nations are unethical because what citizenship someone holds influences things like their access to health care,…

The logistics don't seem difficult at all to me if there's a will. People tend to be pretty accommodating when it comes to letting you give them money. At the very least, countries can offer a "medical visa" option to visitors. As for national borders being unethical by nature, if that logically follows then why not? I certainly don't consider ethics a source of "gotcha" questions, but of real conundrums.

> People tend to be pretty accommodating when it comes to letting you give them money.

Not really. A huge amount of charity money supposedly going to the poor in other countries is actually used to bribe officials in those countries to allow the aid to be delivered. Any attempt to give healthcare to people in those countries would also be seen as foreign interference, and suffer the same problems.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#108

Post by monocasa » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 12:36 PM UTC

netsharc wrote: post #74

2drew3 wrote: post #13

For those who watched the movie, I found the ending interesting. I won't spoil it for everyone else, but Bong Joon-ho made his perspective unambiguous: he's not a believer in social mobility in Korea. 6 of the top 10 Forbes list in Korea are self-made; the other 4 inherited their wealth. In contrast, 10 out of top 10 are self-made in the US. There are better metrics to compare social mobility (this one was convenient…

Bill Gates had rich parents, who bought a computer for his private school (ok maybe that's an urban legend, but Wikipedia says: When he was in the eighth grade, the Mothers' Club at the school used proceeds from Lakeside School's rummage sale to buy a Teletype Model 33 ASR terminal and a block of computer time on a General Electric (GE) computer for the students.). Zuck went to a private school. Not really basement d…

Gates also got the IBM DOS contract because his mom was on a board of directors with someone who was also on the board of IBM.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#109

Post by claudeganon » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 12:50 PM UTC

ALittleLight wrote: post #31

claudeganon wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the film was that poverty forces the poor into ruthless conflict with each other as they battle for the scraps of the rich. It’s pretty blatant. As was the indifference of the rich to the struggles of the poor and their own inhumanity toward them.

In one scene, the poor mother says something like "If I was this rich, I'd be nice too" and then immediately scolds or hits a begging dog. In this scene, the poor woman is relatively rich - she has the house they've taken over for the weekend, plenty of food, and the dog is poor and begging. I interpreted this, as the two events happen one right after the other, as the movie clearly rejecting the woman's claim. Even…

> Other poor people aren't as mean. The original staff at the house are diligent workers. The original driver offers to go above and beyond to drive the sister home. The hidden family are dedicated servants. The first tutor tries to help his friend.

The original housekeeper is literally lying to her employers, keeping her husband in their house in a secret compartment, where he steals food at night and terrifies their children? And as soon as this material security collapses, they become just as cutthroat as the other family.

The case of the original driver is ambiguous. At least to me, it was implied that the daughter concocted the scheme because she felt the driver was trying to find out where she lived because he was attracted to her. Most women I know wouldn’t allow a random guy to drive them directly to their house and especially if he had insisted on it after they asked to be dropped off somewhere else. This doesn’t justify pinning the fake “crime” on him, but to me, that was the subtext.

The family friend/original tutor is not desperately poor like the family. In the beginning of the film, he offers the friend the position because he’s going overseas and states his intention to marry into the wealthy family, both of which would’ve been impossible were he not well-off himself.

The mother doesn’t “have a lot” when she’s cruel to the dog, she’s feasting on some fleeting spoils. But the whole point of the film is that morality follows material stability, not the other way around.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#110

Post by nickik » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 12:50 PM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #85

watwut wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that you are simplifying those events quite a lot. The willingness of "bottom of the class hierarchy" to join counts for quite a lot. That is involvement and engagement in politics. The actual bottom is despised by everyone and comes with host of social problems. One of massive sparks for these political groups is fear that I will become part of the bottom . Both French Revolution and Russian one involved qui…

> The willingness of "bottom of the class hierarchy" to join counts for quite a lot. If this were true neither the Russian nor the French Revolution would have been a “success”. Both were won by committed minorities in the capital city and they were even less popular outside it. A small organized minority of people willing to use violence to achieve their goals who are good at it can overcome weak opposition from a m…

I have tried to make this point often but people absolutely hate it and don't want to listen.

Yes, there is a lot of local action, lots of mobs and mobs going after whatever.

But the political outcome is often not determined by those action.

I would however ague that those who can get the mob to act for them can get an advantage. Controlling the population and the mob matters quite a bit, just not as much as people who love the glorified revolution from the bottom like to think.