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An industry dedicated to making foods crispy

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Re: An industry dedicated to making foods crispy

#101

Post by phonypc »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96
phonypc wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can of course melt almost any unprocessed cheese without separating it, but they all split if overheated and don't behave well with added liquid (e.g. in sauces) without assistance from some additive. Processed cheeses with these "melting salts" have categorically different melting characteristics, they aren't trying to merely simulate regular cheese; they start as out as regular cheese after all.

>> You can of course melt almost any unprocessed cheese without separating it, but they all split if overheated and don't behave well with added liquid (e.g. in sauces) without assistance from some additive. That is really not my experience. Are we both talking about good to high quality European hard and semi-hard cheeses, especially PDO varieties? Edit: come to think of it, I should probably also check what you mea…

Yes, some preparations even rely on cheese separating. E.g. parmesan tuiles, even when prepared with PDO Parmigiano-Reggiano or Grana Padano can be seen breaking and expelling their fat before crisping. Every preparation of onion soup I've seen, even when using proper Gruyere or Comte, has an oil slick on top that has been expelled from the cheese. The cheeses used in saganaki (which I've never seen battered, only fried directly) weep oil before they melt.

Processed cheeses, on the other hand, will typically burn before they break. And they flow very differently when melted.

Re: An industry dedicated to making foods crispy

#102

Post by phonypc »

roel_v wrote: post #97
phonypc wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smooth texture, that doesn't break (separate into oil and protein) with heat. Those ingredients and/or similar ones are principally responsible for what makes "processed cheese" processed. So think Velveeta or Kraft Singles, but potentially made with higher quality cheese.

That's cool, although I do somewhat have the same reaction as the poster downthread that I don't really have the experience that cheeses in my dishes separate. Either way, did you figure this out yourself from your chemistry background, or can you recommend a book that is "applied chemistry for dummies with a focus on cooking" without going all "modernist cuisine"? To me, cooking is applied chemistry, but the vast ma…

I am not the poster you originally responded to and have no formal background in chemistry. That said, On Food And Cooking: The Science And Lore Of The Kitchen by Harold McGee is the prototypical recommendation for food science basics. The following link is a write-up more specific to processed cheese.

https://www.seriouseats.com/2016/07/whats-really-in-american...

Re: An industry dedicated to making foods crispy

#103

Post by njarboe »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #59
kikoreis wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point being made is that when the government bears the cost of the externality it is more incentivized to address root causes, as it is a direct driver of savings. I am always looking for this sort of alignment of incentives when structuring a project, and it takes some effort but when you can find it it's dynamite.

> I think the point being made is that when the government bears the cost of the externality it is more incentivized to address root causes, as it is a direct driver of savings. Thank you, this is indeed the point that was intended. It's not a direct case of the food manufacturer saying "Hey we have socialized healthcare, let's make healthier chips", it's the government thinking "Damn, we have a lot of obese people,…

That is a pretty optimistic view of US government agencies that I don't share. Most fight tooth and nail to increase their budgets so I think don't heathcare being socialized (and becoming the largest agency in the government) would likely increase the government interest in a healthy population.

Re: An industry dedicated to making foods crispy

#104

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

phonypc wrote: post #101
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You can of course melt almost any unprocessed cheese without separating it, but they all split if overheated and don't behave well with added liquid (e.g. in sauces) without assistance from some additive. That is really not my experience. Are we both talking about good to high quality European hard and semi-hard cheeses, especially PDO varieties? Edit: come to think of it, I should probably also check what you mea…

Yes, some preparations even rely on cheese separating. E.g. parmesan tuiles, even when prepared with PDO Parmigiano-Reggiano or Grana Padano can be seen breaking and expelling their fat before crisping. Every preparation of onion soup I've seen, even when using proper Gruyere or Comte, has an oil slick on top that has been expelled from the cheese. The cheeses used in saganaki (which I've never seen battered, only fr…

In that case I have no idea what you're talking about :)

I think we may be talking about different things. I don't eat processed cheese so I don't know how it behaves. A quick search on the internet tells me that processed cheese can be melted to the point it is poured. It is then used in sauces. For sure, you can't pour real cheese. So I'm talking about the kind of melting you see, e.g. in a raclette:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5U1crD18iM

Yes, real cheese will weep when you heat it but that's not "oil". Depending on the age of the cheese, some of it is whey and the rest is butterfat. But your description of "breaking" makes it sound like you expect cheese to cleanly separate in a puddle of butterfat and a chunk of protein, whereas real cheese will melt into a viscous fluid. That is - if it's cheese that melts in the first place. For instance, feta or haloumi don't melt, etc. I suspect I might misunderstand your description of "break" though.

Regarding saganaki, it is prepared with many different cheeses, normally Greek cheeses. I have no idea how Greek-style cheese behaves, that is prepared outside Greece, but feta will not melt and only weep whey, whereas graviera, kaseri, kefalotyri etc "yellow cheeses" (as we call them) will melt. Saganaki is battered (or sometimes rolled in flour) for this reason- to keep the cheese from spreading after it melts. That's how it's made in Greece. I guess it's made in a different fashion outside of Greece.

Finally- although I've never tried to make tuiles from parmesan, there is a large industry of counterfeit Parmiggianio Reggiano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5U1crD18iM

Which might well explain ill-behaved "Parmiggiano Reggiano".

Re: An industry dedicated to making foods crispy

#105

Post by phonypc »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #104
phonypc wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, some preparations even rely on cheese separating. E.g. parmesan tuiles, even when prepared with PDO Parmigiano-Reggiano or Grana Padano can be seen breaking and expelling their fat before crisping. Every preparation of onion soup I've seen, even when using proper Gruyere or Comte, has an oil slick on top that has been expelled from the cheese. The cheeses used in saganaki (which I've never seen battered, only fr…

In that case I have no idea what you're talking about :) I think we may be talking about different things. I don't eat processed cheese so I don't know how it behaves. A quick search on the internet tells me that processed cheese can be melted to the point it is poured. It is then used in sauces. For sure, you can't pour real cheese. So I'm talking about the kind of melting you see, e.g. in a raclette: https://www.yo…

I use oil interchangeably with butterfat in the context of dairy. I'm aware cheese does not contain vegetable oil or petroleum.

The raclette in your linked video has begun to separate and formed an oily sheen on the outside. If you continued to cook it in a pan it would eventually form a puddle of fat.

I don't consider (real) parm ill-behaved when making tuiles. They're yummy.

Re: An industry dedicated to making foods crispy

#106

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

phonypc wrote: post #105
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case I have no idea what you're talking about :) I think we may be talking about different things. I don't eat processed cheese so I don't know how it behaves. A quick search on the internet tells me that processed cheese can be melted to the point it is poured. It is then used in sauces. For sure, you can't pour real cheese. So I'm talking about the kind of melting you see, e.g. in a raclette: https://www.yo…

I use oil interchangeably with butterfat in the context of dairy. I'm aware cheese does not contain vegetable oil or petroleum. The raclette in your linked video has begun to separate and formed an oily sheen on the outside. If you continued to cook it in a pan it would eventually form a puddle of fat. I don't consider (real) parm ill-behaved when making tuiles. They're yummy.

I'd expect it to form a puddle of molten cheese. So you 'd say that the raclette in the video is "breaking"?

The way you said it I thought you were describing something really awful that you wouldn't want to eat. I don't see why you'd have to add er additives to cheese otherwise.

Edit: OK, I still don't get it. Do you have a picture or a video of what you're describing?

Re: An industry dedicated to making foods crispy

#107

Post by eru »

perl4ever wrote: post #100
eru wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On a mass scale, every cent counts and the first thing to take a hit is the quality of the flour and the density of the dough. Yes, but a better product can be sold for more. That's why they are making something resembling baguettes in the first place, and not just the cheapest loaf possible. (Not saying that in practice the factory baguettes are better than what your favourite baker does. Far from it.)

Surely baguettes are always sold for way more than the cost of ingredients.

I'd assume so. Labour costs (including both baking and retail) are a big part of the price of a baguette.

Why?

Oh, perhaps because I wrote 'Yes, but a better product can be sold for more.'?

To be more explicit: Yes, but a better product can be sold for more than a worse product.

(Not: "Yes, but a better product can be sold for more than price of ingredients.")

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