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I Worked for a Criminal Organization

openmonstervision.github.io

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Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#101

Post by michaelt »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #94
TeMPOraL wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating a tool that can theoretically be abused to break laws? No. Selling a tool with a law-breaking feature, in full knowledge that its main selling point is that feature, that your customers are buying it specifically to break the law? That ought to raise some ethical concerns. You can say that it depends on the particular laws being broken - but here we're not talking about ethical minutiae of censorship or surv…

> We're talking the usual defrauding of the commons through tax evasion. Giving ‘The Government’ less money is seen by some as a moral duty . Governments do a whole lot of giving other people other people’s money . I’m sure there’s people who would argue this can be problematic.

> Giving ‘The Government’ less money is seen by some as a moral duty.

Right, but when you add a feature that does that and has no other major use, you move beyond 'seen by some' on to 'seen by me'

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#102

Post by TeMPOraL »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #94
TeMPOraL wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating a tool that can theoretically be abused to break laws? No. Selling a tool with a law-breaking feature, in full knowledge that its main selling point is that feature, that your customers are buying it specifically to break the law? That ought to raise some ethical concerns. You can say that it depends on the particular laws being broken - but here we're not talking about ethical minutiae of censorship or surv…

> We're talking the usual defrauding of the commons through tax evasion. Giving ‘The Government’ less money is seen by some as a moral duty . Governments do a whole lot of giving other people other people’s money . I’m sure there’s people who would argue this can be problematic.

There's plenty of such people. Most that I met are simultaneously unhappy about giving their government the money, and very happy to use all the services provided by the government from that money[0]. I would appreciate their views more if their argument involved pointing out that nobody asked them to sign the social contract, and that they have no meaningful way to opt out. But very few of such people I talked to raised that point. The argument seems to always boil down to "me getting service good, me paying for it bad".

(I've also seen people argue that they pay for more than they're using, but somehow the concept of derisking and variance reduction doesn't escape these people when it comes to buying insurance.)

--

[0] - Ranging from healthcare and schooling to laws, defense and ensuring a safe and stable environment in which everyone can conduct their business.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#103

Post by speedplane »

scandox wrote: post #96
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax evasion is a fairly soft crime, it’s shouldn’t be surprising there are people okay with facilitating it. It’s not difficult to find people who believe, rightly or wrongly, the tax system is unfair.

It's a funny one because it's potentially one of the most serious crimes. You're stealing from everybody, undermining the basis of trust in the entire system in which we live and probably in the long term eroding the basis of democracy. You're creating a non-level playing field. On the other hand, black and grey market activity are also I think quite an important counter-balance to the possibility of totalitarian gov…

> It's a funny one because [Tax Evasion is] potentially one of the most serious crimes. You're stealing from everybody, undermining the basis of trust in the entire system in which we live and probably in the long term eroding the basis of democracy. You're creating a non-level playing field.

This is true, and in addition, it's a very unequal crime. To properly evade taxes and get away with it, you need professional help. Most standard W-2 employees can't afford it, i.e., for most, the cost to hire professional help evading taxes is larger than the taxes they could save.

However, if you're very wealthy, then the calculus changes: saving 20% taxes on $50M/yr income is a lot more attractive than saving 20% on $200k/yr income. Effectively, the wealthier you are, the easier it is to evade taxes, further exacerbating at least the perception (and quite likely the reality) of inequality.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#104

Post by speedplane »

scandox wrote: post #96
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax evasion is a fairly soft crime, it’s shouldn’t be surprising there are people okay with facilitating it. It’s not difficult to find people who believe, rightly or wrongly, the tax system is unfair.

It's a funny one because it's potentially one of the most serious crimes. You're stealing from everybody, undermining the basis of trust in the entire system in which we live and probably in the long term eroding the basis of democracy. You're creating a non-level playing field. On the other hand, black and grey market activity are also I think quite an important counter-balance to the possibility of totalitarian gov…

> black and grey market activity are also I think quite an important counter-balance to the possibility of totalitarian government.

I don't really buy this: plenty of totalitarian regimes have illegal black markets, that governments often tolerate because they don't see a threat to their power.

A better way to counter a totalitarian government is via open communication and coordination of the government's subjects. Government's are far more afraid of this, which is why strict censorship and propaganda are the "go-to" tools for any totalitarian regime.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#105

Post by adrianN »

bArray wrote: post #50
samplatt wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of non-regular-maintenance jobs are easy & quick to do but break the law - for example, deleting the catalytic converter or EGR from the exhaust system will give your engine better performance and economy, but is illegal since it increases emissions. Lots of places will do it anyway on a cash job if they think they can get away with it, because it's relatively easy money. A shop replaced my failed catalytic con…

> A shop replaced my failed catalytic converter ($1200+ > replacement) with a straight pipe ($20 pipe and $200 of > time) many years ago because they (correctly) assessed me > to be a broke-ass student who wouldn't tell on them. The mechanic may have even made even more money by scrapping your catalytic converter. In the UK, swapping the exhaust out for a straight pipe is a common (illegal) modification for greater p…

> At one point we were also experimenting with the idea of using the starter motor strategically to aid engine acceleration - but nothing ever came of it.

This is how the hybrid car was born.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#106

Post by speedplane »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #95
Koremat6666 wrote: post #15

May be I missed it but can someone tell me what was the crime the company was committing ? Almost any company will have defensive strategies such as stalling LEOs and Warrants in whatever way they can. A lot of this is not really "crime" as in kidnapping people or shooting people dead in some alley. Is having shell companies a crime ? I know a ton of bay area "startups" than engage in these sort of tricks to maximize…

> I know a ton of bay area "startups" than engage in these sort of tricks to maximize the brand damage. (...) Half the companies with "explosive" growth were using mass mailing techniques than involved spamming. Many used foreign companies to skirt US law related to spamming. Yes, I think we all know some. And it's true, skirting the law and abusing the commons gives one a competitive advantage. But that doesn't make…

> skirting the law and abusing the commons gives one a competitive advantage. But that doesn't make it OK. The market isn't the arbiter of ethics.

Sadly, this is a bit naive, market have become the arbiters of ethics, namely: if it successful, it's good.

This isn't a traditional moral code from, e.g., Kant, Bentham, or Locke. Rather, it's an ethics based on capitalism.

Sure, wonky economics professors justify capitalism by saying it's the most efficient or provides the most utility, arguably grounded in traditional Bentham morality.

But capitalism has never simply been an economic policy, there has always been an ideological component to it (see for example, Ayn Rand). Maximizing returns on investment isn't just "efficient", it's "right".

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#107

Post by Ragnarork »

normalnorm wrote: post #75
Koremat6666 wrote: post #15

May be I missed it but can someone tell me what was the crime the company was committing ? Almost any company will have defensive strategies such as stalling LEOs and Warrants in whatever way they can. A lot of this is not really "crime" as in kidnapping people or shooting people dead in some alley. Is having shell companies a crime ? I know a ton of bay area "startups" than engage in these sort of tricks to maximize…

Am I the only one getting depressed with all the excuses and rationalizations in this thread? It's the same with "adtech" and the like... "Hey, I'm not killing anyone, what's the harm?" Technology has the potential to raise humanity above its current conditions and limitations. But we can't have it, because we are selfish and short-sighted monkeys. Take a big dump on all the ideals if this delivers the paycheck. "Bus…

No you're not the only one.

I find especially baffling the rationalization over the type of crime. You don't need to physically harm someone to be committing a crime, and there's a lot of different crimes that happen in paper and/or bytes that don't (directly) physically harm people.

That doesn't make them right or okay by any means.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#108

Post by Shacklz »

normalnorm wrote: post #75
Koremat6666 wrote: post #15

May be I missed it but can someone tell me what was the crime the company was committing ? Almost any company will have defensive strategies such as stalling LEOs and Warrants in whatever way they can. A lot of this is not really "crime" as in kidnapping people or shooting people dead in some alley. Is having shell companies a crime ? I know a ton of bay area "startups" than engage in these sort of tricks to maximize…

Am I the only one getting depressed with all the excuses and rationalizations in this thread? It's the same with "adtech" and the like... "Hey, I'm not killing anyone, what's the harm?" Technology has the potential to raise humanity above its current conditions and limitations. But we can't have it, because we are selfish and short-sighted monkeys. Take a big dump on all the ideals if this delivers the paycheck. "Bus…

Thanks so much for calling this out, including the coarse language used, because in my opinion, it's really warranted.

We could do so many good things with technology, instead we use it more and more for bullshit to maximize profits instead of maximizing social value. It really is depressing really.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#109

Post by c3534l »

scandox wrote: post #96
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax evasion is a fairly soft crime, it’s shouldn’t be surprising there are people okay with facilitating it. It’s not difficult to find people who believe, rightly or wrongly, the tax system is unfair.

It's a funny one because it's potentially one of the most serious crimes. You're stealing from everybody, undermining the basis of trust in the entire system in which we live and probably in the long term eroding the basis of democracy. You're creating a non-level playing field. On the other hand, black and grey market activity are also I think quite an important counter-balance to the possibility of totalitarian gov…

Psychologically it's hard to see the victim, so people don't count it. It's a terrible thing about human nature, but it is what it is. The person you're replying to will never see themselves on the same level as someone who mugs someone or robs a liquor store, not because the damage they've done isn't worse, but because it doesn't feel wrong. We invent all sorts of ways and reasoning that allow us to do awful things without feeling guilt. It's just a sad fact about us.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#110

Post by wappayment »

blackrock wrote: post #74

Geez. I wonder if working for a porn hosting company is better. I’d rather not work for either, but if you’re not in a hot tech area, then your choices are limited.

A few years back i used to work for a porn company and they are not.

There is an old protocol still creeping around smartphones known as WAP Payment (yes that WAP) which was/is used to buy stuff on the mobile web and the purchase shows up on your phone bill.

They buy all type of mobile ads (banner, text, popup, modal, etc.) and when you open the ad you get billed 4€, 5€, 6€ per week or month, without any confirmation whatsoever. Some phone carriers ask for user input (mostly the user has to click a button "I agree") but that's where click-jacking, CSRF and other kind of exploit comes in, very few ask for a confirmation code.

The sad thing is that they know, the carriers know but they don't care, until enough people complain about it then they shutdown the service to that website for a few days (in some cases they shut it down permanently) but they always come back online.

P.S. this is a throwaway account

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