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Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

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Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#101
I was a grad student at the Media Lab in its early days. I was attracted not by Negroponte but by the people he managed to attract: at the time, that included Marvin Minsky, Alan Kay, and Stewart Brand, as well as some less famous but truly brilliant people from the arts (Ricky Leacock, Muriel Cooper) and sciences (Steve Benton, inventor of white-light holography). It was an exciting place, but there was a hollowness at the core and not just architecturally (the shiny new IM Pei building was mostly empty space, since filled in).

Negroponte himself has always been a politician, a hypester, and a sleaze. His one true innovation was in fundraising – he was able to get industries that weren՚t used to funding research (eg the newspapers) to pony up for industry consortia. This was, maybe, better than the usual DoD funding that kept the AI lab alive, but it came with constraints of its own, including trying to impose IP agreements on the graduate students that made it difficult to open-source software. And of course in later days (I was mercifully gone by then) the creative approach to fundraising ran into even more serious issues with Jeffrey Epstein.

I՚d say evaluations of the Media Lab as an institution should be done separately from evaluations of any particular program or researcher who may have passed through there, because while the institution has some fundamentally broken aspects, there has been a lot of good work done there.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#102
"If I hadn't snubbed Jobs and Woz, I might've been the Jef Raskin of Apple"

That quote made me look up who Ted Nelson was. His most notable project that I see is Xanadu which Wired described as "the longest-running vaporware project in the history of computing". Started in 1960, it didn't ship a working version until 2014.

I don't disagree that the Media Lab often overhypes things. But you need to be able to sell your ideas and get people excited about them to have an impact on the world. That involves being positive and having genuine excitement for the potential of something which today might be very hacky. I'm convinced this positivity is a lot of what makes Silicon Valley work.

A long time after Xanadu was founded, a contractor at CERN put together a basic, very imperfect way of publishing and connecting research papers on the computer networks called the World Wide Web. The Xanadu team said he stole their ideas and it was a "bizarre structure created by arbitrary initiatives of varied people and it has a terrible programming language". Tim Berners-Lee just kept shipping code and getting people to join his vision of the future and so today his WWW is what we're all using.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, you know that CSAIL is not the media lab, right? Secondly, there’s nothing gimmicky about CSAIL. Perhaps nerds sitting around writing code or proving lemmas on a whiteboard isn’t so “cool” to look at as a high schooler, but that doesn’t mean it’s isn’t an exciting place when you’re old enough, knowledgeable enough, and creative enough to enjoy it.

First, yes I know CSAIL and the media lab are different. Second, it's quite conceivable actual (interesting) research things were and are happening in CSAIL. To clarify, since this apparently was not obvious: What I am saying is that basically whatever research and interesting things were being done was pretty much hidden behind a dog and pony show (and some robots and bragging about whatever architect designed the b…

CSAIL and the Media Lab are very different places, with different funding sources and ways of interacting with the broader community. There’s also some friction between the two. So to rope it all together is your incorrect outsider impression.

My guess is most high schoolers probably do want to see fancy buildings and robots. There’s no beakers with smoke or explosions (hopefully) happening in a computer science department, so it sounds like they’re doing what they think is their best to appeal to a younger audience. I’m sorry it wasn’t the right marketing message for you, but if you wanted to understand at a deeper level what they were doing there’s no lack of information on the department webpage if you go explore the actual research groups and papers.

From my perspective, MIT truly is an amazing and special place filled with fabulous minds and ample resources. But it’s not for everyone.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#104
post #76

CSAIL alum here, at the risk of being accused of inter-lab rivalry, I have got to say the Media lab has a reputation of being the "Marketing dept of MIT". A Wired article a while back referred to them as "all icing and no cake". The "sixth sense project" for example, was one I thought was more worthy of an undergraduate project, than MIT Doctoral research. I wish Media lab refocuses in enormous resources & talent on…

Yes. You are absolutely right that Media lab does a lot of marketing work. I worked with an MIT-graduated professor as a grad student for a few months. When he joined my then grad school, he recently got his PhD. The first thing he did as an assistant prof was to teach his students on how to promote their work. He even showed us a slide deck from MIT Media lab that basically teaches you how to do just that (promote your work and make presentations look fantastic).

True to his roots, the guy was pretty good at promoting his work (although, having worked on the system he was developing at that time for a bit, I highly doubt the outcome of his project is as good as he made them look like) and he always made sure to get his work featured one way or another in media (be it University publication, local newspapers and through non-profit media channels).

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#105
post #11

Pot, meet kettle. Ted's been banging on the Xanadu drum for 50 years... if he'd have just bothered to learn to program, he could have implemented it himself, but it seems he'd rather give interviews about it than sit down at a keyboard.

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Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#106
post #11

Pot, meet kettle. Ted's been banging on the Xanadu drum for 50 years... if he'd have just bothered to learn to program, he could have implemented it himself, but it seems he'd rather give interviews about it than sit down at a keyboard.

I was just thinking that Ted Nelson accusing the Media Lab of selling visions to promote itself is like Genghis Khan accusing Attila of pillaging.

Which is not to say that selling visions doesn't have a useful place in the world.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#107
I don't think many people would argue that Nelson isn't a visionary, but when push comes to shove, there is an uncomfortable amount of truth in Steve Jobs's oft-cited quip, "Real artists ship." After 50 years, Project Xanadu not only isn't in a production-ready state, the "best demo" available is described on the xanadu.com web site as "beyond fixing." The sample EDL documents on the site do a good job of demonstrating what Nelson had in mind with "transclusion" and two-way links, but it is much harder to tell at a glance what the relationship of the source is to the output than it is with HTML, and at least as implemented, EDLs look awfully brittle.

Maybe Xanadu as envisioned would have been better than the web we have now, but what we have as ostensible working proof of that isn't incredibly convincing. Okay, I could link to any text on another web page, not just text with "anchor" links, and the text I linked to would be highlighted. That's nice, but is it essential? And I can transclude text from any other page, which is coo, but man, Nelson seems to stubbornly ignore the ramifications -- or perhaps think commerce and law will rearrange itself suitably to accommodate his vision. "Publishers of original content are free to require payment, or not"; what's the mechanism? What if I just don't want you to transclude text from my document, or only want to allow transcluding certain parts? How are EDLs updated when transcluded documents change? How come, after fifty years, these fundamental questions are still answered with lines like "[Page and document logic] is defined by the data structure, which we will publish when ready"? Has anyone associated with Xanadu considered even basic HTML 2.0-level presentation aspects like tables, images and fonts?

I can't help but think Ted Nelson is the archetypal poster child for "the perfect is the enemy of the good." He's not the Jef Raskin of Apple because, at the end of the day, Raskin was willing to work with other people and make compromises to get some of his vision out the door. Xanadu's failure -- and by all practical measures, it is indeed a failure -- isn't due to the MIT Media Lab, or Tim Berners-Lee, or Apple, or Microsoft, or its variously brilliant-slash-flaky development teams. It's because they never. Ever. Shipped.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#108

"If I hadn't snubbed Jobs and Woz, I might've been the Jef Raskin of Apple" That quote made me look up who Ted Nelson was. His most notable project that I see is Xanadu which Wired described as "the longest-running vaporware project in the history of computing". Started in 1960, it didn't ship a working version until 2014. I don't disagree that the Media Lab often overhypes things. But you need to be able to sell you…

it’s true though, we pretend to attribute success to merit but really it’s all just the butterfly effect and being in the right place at the right time.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#109
post #11

Pot, meet kettle. Ted's been banging on the Xanadu drum for 50 years... if he'd have just bothered to learn to program, he could have implemented it himself, but it seems he'd rather give interviews about it than sit down at a keyboard.

~25 years ago, when the web was pretty new, I saw Ted Nelson give a talk about it. He was angry that it took so long for the world to wake up and hear the gospel of hypertext. And he was outraged and disappointed that the web didn't implement his vision of hypertext. Links should be two-way! The platform should treat intellectual property as a first-class concept! There should be attributions or royalties (or something, forgot the details)! And it did none of that!

I was tempted to laugh it off and dismiss him as just an envious nutcase, but then I realized something: his vision actually did have a lot of neat ideas in it. I came to the conclusion that Ted Nelson is a creative thinker, who had been way ahead of his time in certain ways. To me, it would be a mistake to not listen to him at all. It would also be a mistake to listen without a huge amount of skepticism.

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