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Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

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Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#101
post #92

For me, Twitter has been the worst thing to happen to journalism. There are a lot of downsides to strong institutions and gatekeeping, but when it comes to journalism I always felt like I was reading The New York Times or The Washington Post and not an individual reporter. The shroud of not getting an up close an personal look put the institution at the forefront. With social media, Twitter specifically, the journali…

> For me, Twitter has been the worst thing to happen to journalism.

This is the absolute reverse of true: twitter allows accountability of the journalists at outfits you mentioned.

> With social media, Twitter specifically, the journalist becomes the main focal point

If you put your name on reporting, you're accountable for its quality.

> and particularly how non-diverse these institutions are

Au contraire, the papers seem far more obsessed with idpol than twitter, preferring to focus on cults of personality and what their popularity (or non popularity) means than meat and potato issues.

> A majority of the content is still really good (climate reporting, international politics, 'explainers' and data backed reporting are all excellent)

I disagree, but I'll leave the question of why you consider this flavor of reporting high quality up to you to figure it out.

I subscribe to the new york times, the washington post, and the la times, RT, al jazeera, among many other smaller publications. I don't think I could make any sense of the election year, climate change, or international politics without twitter, full stop—you're only seeing half the conversation, or less. Frankly even hacker news has better "reporting" on climate change than any "journalistic outfit" I've read, mostly because it's a massive topic to cover that changes very rapidly and it doesn't sell attention nearly as well as problems that operate within our understood paradigm of how our world should work.

And, frankly, it's hard to imagine an outfit more driven to polarize and work up its base for no discernible reason than the New York Times Opinion section—I can't articulate it better than this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsWj7Q5iPus.

Finally, this entire dialogue neglects that twitter allows journalists to critique each other in public, a distinctly positive thing for journalism no matter what your opinions are about the unwashed masses.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#102

It's much more rare though and it's almost entirely absent when looking at political coverage. Two journalists I can think of off the top of my head who have acted with outstanding integrity in recent years are Ronan Farrow and Julie K. Brown (broke the Weinstein and Epstein stories respectively). Part of what makes their journalism so strong is that they had to fight the entire industry to get their stories out. Pol…

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22146480.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's an article that covers a series of severe factual errors in the New York Times, caused by the political biases of the institution: I don't have the expertise necessary to evaluate this myself. Two issues that jumped out at me, however: unherd doesn't mention that some of the articles they criticize are opinion pieces, and if you Google keywords from their first takedown you'll find more nuanced coverage. Fro…

What do you do when it's the NYT Editorial Board themselves writing the Op-Ed that gets facts wrong? The older I've gotten, the more I've read news stories that are directly related to me, my industry or people I'm in regular contact with. The percentage of these stories that are demonstrably false even on a basic fact checking level is 100%. In most instances, the reporting tells the exact opposite story from the ev…

FYI, all the articles I clicked on in the link that started all of this were opeds by people not associated with the nytimes.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#104
post #92

For me, Twitter has been the worst thing to happen to journalism. There are a lot of downsides to strong institutions and gatekeeping, but when it comes to journalism I always felt like I was reading The New York Times or The Washington Post and not an individual reporter. The shroud of not getting an up close an personal look put the institution at the forefront. With social media, Twitter specifically, the journali…

> unfortunately the biases comes out as we are all human

Can you point to an example of any recent article in any US paper that even tries to be objective? Only the BBC pretends to strive for that nowadays.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you do when it's the NYT Editorial Board themselves writing the Op-Ed that gets facts wrong? The older I've gotten, the more I've read news stories that are directly related to me, my industry or people I'm in regular contact with. The percentage of these stories that are demonstrably false even on a basic fact checking level is 100%. In most instances, the reporting tells the exact opposite story from the ev…

FYI, all the articles I clicked on in the link that started all of this were opeds by people not associated with the nytimes.

I wasn't speaking to that article specifically but at the lax stewardship that the NYT is under right now.

NYT Editorial Board members do write Op-Eds of the sort I mention.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#106
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then... I want to adress one final fact which is that it's easier to say it's the "journalists" fault if information has gotten so bad. Journalists for sure hold responsability in this but the public that doesnt value the work, isn't willing to pay for it and will click on whatever is coming up without caring about sourcing... Well, that crowd also has its share in how bad the situation has gotten. I don't think you…

I get the feeling that you're somewhat justifying the state of journalism with "you have to make money somehow" and "people are also not valuing good journalism". Consider what would happen if you transferred that to other professions. "Oh well, people die because the house collapses, but the owners want it cheap and I have to pay the rent. Also, people don't value good craftsmanship in buildings", or, let's take it…

It'd rather seem that Jefferson really didn't have the answer either. His 'solution' probably wasn't a solution, and would probably drive said paper out of business.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#107
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we’re talking past each other. Manufacturing consent isn’t always about lying or making things up. It can be presenting a united front on something and it entails telling the truth with which you’re persuading a pop to see that POV.

I've never heard manufacturing consent used like that. Do you have any examples of what you're talking about? Genuinely curious.

"I've never heard manufacturing consent used like that. Do you have any examples of what you're talking about? Genuinely curious."

It's called 'PR', it's used all day, every day by most companies and political organizations, social movements and even the government.

Highlighting the positive aspects of whatever you're doing, avoiding the negative aspects, discrediting opponents and most insidiously - misrepresenting their arguments is how it's done.

It's about creating the intended narrative around a specific subject.

Take any controversial issue and you'll generally see that the 'sides' are not having a debate in public, they're engaging in framing the issue in a manner. The end up talking past one another entirely.

'Manufacturing Consent' is a funny book, because we read it when we're young and naive and our eyes are opened to the reality of the world and the perennial war of ideas. Because such activities are framed as nefarious and related to questionable acts of intervention (i.e. US intervention in S. America) ... we are 'shocked and outraged'. But I think looking at it from a more mature, contextualized perspective, it doesn't seem 'shocking' it seems really normal.

Ironically the real coup of Chomsky is to misrepresent the nature of 'mass idea marketing' in a fair antagonist way that I don't think is really helpful.

Unfortunately - almost all news is narrative-driven.

Certainly the entirety of cable news.

If you watch the local news, it feels dry and mundane, because it's generally very truthful, and there isn't a lot of 'war of ideas' over the dog that called 911.

But for everything in pop culture and politics, there's a way to frame the subject in an ideological way (or in a manner that represents the interests of some group like advertisers or powerful individuals etc.) which is what happens all day long.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#108
post #92

For me, Twitter has been the worst thing to happen to journalism. There are a lot of downsides to strong institutions and gatekeeping, but when it comes to journalism I always felt like I was reading The New York Times or The Washington Post and not an individual reporter. The shroud of not getting an up close an personal look put the institution at the forefront. With social media, Twitter specifically, the journali…

> unfortunately the biases comes out as we are all human Can you point to an example of any recent article in any US paper that even tries to be objective? Only the BBC pretends to strive for that nowadays.

> Only the BBC pretends to strive for that nowadays.

This remark is hugely ironic if you followed the recent UK election, but they at least have an outside perspective in the US.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see is that no one can agree on what is right or the truth any longer. What one side considers the truth might not be the same for the other, look no further than the impeachment proceedings. I'm amazed that we've reached a point in the USA where we can't agree on some simple truths anymore.

>I'm am amazed that we've reached a point the in the USA where we can't agree on some simple truths anymore. I'm curious. Can you give one or two examples of the 'simple truths' that we can't agree on anymore? >What one side considers the truth might not be the same for the other, look no further than the impeachment proceedings. The impeachment proceedings are interesting examples because I truly believe that object…

"I'm curious. Can you give one or two examples of the 'simple truths' that we can't agree on anymore?"

"Should Trump be impeached for leveraging military aid to require an investigation into local companies in a nation that was ostensibly interfering in American politics, when the target of said investigation is a political opponent, thereby creating an obvious conflict of interest"

"Should Hillary Clinton be charged for communicating sensitive information using persona devices, or deleting information requested by the FBI during the subsequent investigation"

These are really hard issues actually.

If you stand outside your hatred or love for these people, and stand outside of your own political preferences, they become considerably more nuanced and difficult than we'd care to admit.

They are not black and white enough to have easy answers, and so, we get narratives, misinformation, and polarisation.

Re: Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism

#110
post #92

For me, Twitter has been the worst thing to happen to journalism. There are a lot of downsides to strong institutions and gatekeeping, but when it comes to journalism I always felt like I was reading The New York Times or The Washington Post and not an individual reporter. The shroud of not getting an up close an personal look put the institution at the forefront. With social media, Twitter specifically, the journali…

In defense of social media, the first two weeks of the revolution in Tunisia (the start of the Arab Spring) were completely absent from international media. That taught me a lot about journalism. In the current crisis in China, social media is a very important element in interpreting official reports. It's also important for unpicking PR and marketing fantasies. As we say in Australia, keep the bastards honest.
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