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Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

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Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#101

Post by gamblor956 »

pjc50 wrote: post #47
gamblor956 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They never had Reagan, so they still treat mental illness there. More importantly, Finland allows for the involuntary commitment if the mentally ill. In the US, this is only allowed if the individual presents a danger to themselves or others.

That's almost what the Finnish system requires: https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/231986/comp... "The current Finnish Mental Health Act stipulates thefollowing criteria for compulsory admission: .a person should be found to have a psychotic illness,and .because of this psychosis, they are (.in need of psychiatric care as their condition would otherwise worsen [this is the main different criterion], or…

The main different condition makes all the difference...

That would describe more than two thirds of the homeless.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#102

Post by claudeganon »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #79
claudeganon wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great deal of spending in the US suffers the problem of direct versus some form of market disintermediation. So, instead of just building houses for people, we funnel it through myriad private or semi-private bureaucracies and suffer their corruption and graft.

That appears to be happening in Finland as well. The article says that state funding is funneled through "NGOs such as the Y-Foundation" who are responsible for actually getting the housing.

Yes, it’s not a binary situation. But Finland also directly took over several private/NGO shelters and converted them to apartment blocks. In the US, this would be considered verboten in most major cities because of the challenge it poses to everyone involved in real estate speculation and development.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#104

Post by Bostonian »

netsharc wrote: post #63
Bostonian wrote: post #26

"Those affected by homelessness receive a small apartment and counselling – without any preconditions." I doubt it will work in Finland in the long run, and even if it does, Finland and the U.S. have very different populations. Most Americans work to put a roof over their head, and it's unfair to them to "unconditionally" give some people housing. It's also a big disincentive to work. The current unemployment rate is…

Freaking hell, "Sorry, you'll have to sleep outside, I can't let you sleep in this warm house and bed, because it wouldn't be fair to others.". You probably have a meritocratic view of the world (as many Americans do), that hard work will lead to success. If you believe that, you logically would have to believe the opposite: the people failing failed because they are lazy. But you are discounting luck or upbringing:…

You ignored what I wrote, "There are homeless shelters to prevent people from freezing to death, but that's very different from giving someone their own apartment."

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#105

Post by arethuza »

commandlinefan wrote: post #43
at-fates-hands wrote: post #28

For some perspective: Finalnd's military budget: 300 million US military budget: 700 BILLION The US could dump a lot of money into these social services to address people who are homeless, drug addicts, and other people on the fringes of society. We are however, constantly put in a place where other nations depend on us for their security. As such, they don't have to have a massive defensive budget when they can rely…

Assuming, of course, that if Finland had to provide for its own defense (rather than relying on us), they would still have money left over for social programs.

Why do you think Finland depends on the US - they aren't in NATO?

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#106

Post by throwlaplace »

wolco wrote: post #87
throwlaplace wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every time there's a hopeful article about a progressive policy on hn there's some kind of backwards libertarian hottake in the comments. it's simultaneously offensive and demoralizing. the finnish program (according to the article) has been running since 2008. do you really think your hottake (op to whom you responded) is a novel insight? that you in the 30s of writing that comment cut to the core flaw of the progra…

You can't look at items in isolation. Finland doesn't have an open immigration policy. In fact it's citizen oppose immigration because they wish to preserve what is Finish. Finland is not more progressive in this regard. Now we can start to understand how Finland could end homelessness. With a free immigration policy this would be more difficult both culturally and in terms of costs. How does Finland get it's wealth?…

>With a free immigration policy this would be more difficult both culturally and in terms of costs.

i don't understand what this has to do with anything? is this unique to the immigration patterns in Finland (that immigrants end up homeless?)

in america the homeless are primarily black and white people (not recent immigrants)

https://endhomelessness.org/resource/racial-disparities-home...

>How does Finland get it's wealth?

this is whataboutism. i never made the claim that finland was a progressive utopia. where do you think the US gets it's wealth? oil and coal

https://openmarkets.cmegroup.com/15157/how-much-does-oil-and...

so can we also get some of that homeless sheltering?

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#107

Post by Bostonian »

ahelwer wrote: post #54
Bostonian wrote: post #26

"Those affected by homelessness receive a small apartment and counselling – without any preconditions." I doubt it will work in Finland in the long run, and even if it does, Finland and the U.S. have very different populations. Most Americans work to put a roof over their head, and it's unfair to them to "unconditionally" give some people housing. It's also a big disincentive to work. The current unemployment rate is…

So would you say you're happy & satisfied to live in a society where people must work under threat of dying in the streets? Try to imagine a better world. People should work because they choose to, not at gunpoint. I don't feel it's unfair that someone is given a house, even though I "worked for it" (among many other factors which culminated in my not being homeless). Would you mind unpacking why you feel that way?

"People should work because they choose to, not at gunpoint."

Ultimately taxes are collected at gunpoint too, and collecting more taxes to pay for free apartments for the homeless and other welfare spending means more coercion.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#108

Post by refurb »

gamblor956 wrote: post #22
maxharris wrote: post #2

To help contextualize this so I understand the situation better, can someone compare and contrast what treatment for debilitating mental health issues such as schizophrenia looks like in Finland vs. the US? The second issue is, In the last 10 years, the “Housing First” programme provided 4,600 homes in Finland. In 2017 there were still about 1,900 people living on the streets . In the US, there are something like hal…

They never had Reagan, so they still treat mental illness there. More importantly, Finland allows for the involuntary commitment if the mentally ill. In the US, this is only allowed if the individual presents a danger to themselves or others.

They never had Reagan, so they still treat mental illness there.

This Reagan meme needs to die. The ACLU was very involved in "deinstitutionalization" as well since holding people against their will was regarded as problematic.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#109

Post by refurb »

gamblor956 wrote: post #95
didericis wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding was that many of the institutions that housed and treated mentally ill people were closed in the 70s due to public outcry about mistreatment. The wikipedia article on deinstitutionalization in the US seems to corroborate this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalization_in_th... . It sounds like some institutions were closed after that movement got going, so I wouldn’t be surprised if inst…

No, the closure of mental institutions occurred during the Reagan administration because he cut funding for treating mental illness from his budget. In CA, when he was governor, Reagan ordered the closure of many facilities.

No, there was a society-wide push to close institutions. Reagan might make for a nice whipping boy, but putting it all on him is just silly.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#110

Post by tluyben2 »

metalrain wrote: post #27

While homelessness might be in decline and shelters have more capacity, you can still find people sleeping on the floors of public pay-per-use toilets in Finland. So no, homelessness is not ended and probably never will be.

In NL we already have almost none for a long time (esp compared to, say, 20-25 years ago) but eradicating is hard mostly because of mental illness (often made worse by substance abuse). People with state appointed houses and psychiatric help just ‘escape’ (they are free to walk off anyway) because they cannot cope. I know people who were homeless when I was a student and who are happily living in those houses with help now (some now have families) and others who are still roaming the streets because they cannot be (mentally) in a controlled situation.
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