Heliogen, backed by Gates, says it has achieved a solar breakthrough • Hacker News Board

Re: Heliogen, backed by Gates, says it has achieved a solar breakthrough

#101

Post by beatgammit » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 5:25 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #61

ben509 wrote: post #42

Another interesting problem this might solve is birds. Yes, domestic cats kill orders of magnitudes more birds, but that argument a. depends on relative scale that people don't grok, and b. coming from an energy company reinforces the preconception that they're callous. Add radar and a sufficiently smart AI, and they could turn a PR problem into a marketing pitch by showing birds flying through unscathed while the mi…

If you can track individual birds like that I'd have thought you could do targeted scaring to deter the birds before they get fried. Moving mirrors quickly enough seems like it would require quite significant adaptation of the apparatus?

I worked with a security company that did essentially that with air canons and radar. Unfortunately, scared birds aren't the most predictable creatures, but it seems to work pretty well.

Re: Heliogen, backed by Gates, says it has achieved a solar breakthrough

#102

Post by beatgammit » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 5:31 AM UTC

jerry292 wrote: post #59

edhelas wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Backing up solar production with batteries is pointless. Except for a really specific cases. The costs are too high, the stress on the grid is too high, the grid need to be overscaled, the batteries need to be changed each 15 years the solar panels need to be changed each 20 years. And even if we overcome this, we will need so much solar panel and batteries that we simply don't have enough raw materials to do so (to…

Yeah true. I heard of another Bill Gates backed startup that actually stored the energy in a form of potential energy which was way more cost effective. Keep in mind though dams are super catastrophic to the environment as far as water flow which can be detrimental to moisture and animals that depend on water in certain areas

I'm sure you could do it with a closed system, e.g. pump water up a cliff, and when you need power, bring it back down. I'm guessing using dams on existing rivers is just more convenient than building a closed system from scratch since it can double dip on hydro infrastructure.

Re: Heliogen, backed by Gates, says it has achieved a solar breakthrough

#103

Post by Const-me » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 5:57 AM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #3

solarengineer wrote: post #2

Excerpt: A secretive startup backed by Bill Gates has achieved a solar breakthrough aimed at saving the planet. Heliogen, a clean energy company that emerged from stealth mode on Tuesday, said it has discovered a way to use artificial intelligence and a field of mirrors to reflect so much sunlight that it generates extreme heat above 1,000 degrees Celsius. ===== The article describes a bit about the role the AI is pl…

I fundamentally cannot perceive where AI plays a role. Isn't it just a solvable geometry problem?

Pure speculations below.

To solve the geometry problem, you need to know the inputs, i.e. position of the sun, mirror, and the target. Obvious way is calibrating in advance but that’s not reliable enough, due to wind and thermal expansion acting on the target (it’s elevated) and seismic activity acting on the ground. Another thing, need accurate orientation sensors in the mirror and/or motors capable of precise absolute positioning. All these technical challenges are solvable, but they reduce reliability, reduce focus precision especially over time, add non-trivial costs to the installation.

Instead, apparently they have 4 fixed mounted cameras around the target, looking downwards at the center of the mirror array. The sky doesn’t have distinct features unless clouds, but the sky has these color gradients, vertical one from horizon to zenith, also radial one around the sun. Just seeing these 4 colors might be sufficient to correctly orient the mirror.

Re: Heliogen, backed by Gates, says it has achieved a solar breakthrough

#104

Post by rasz » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 1:29 PM UTC

jccooper wrote: post #51

Jamwinner wrote: post #48

Am I missing the breakthrough? This just reads like boilerplate tech marketing, replete with questionable ai usage. I suspect without its well known backer anyone would notice.

They seem to be using computer vision techniques to dynamically aim the mirrors. Presumably static or open-loop techniques don't focus as precisely, and using a closed loop also allows them to reduce the stiffness (and this material use) in their mounts and/or fewer mirrors.

We have beed dynamically controlling mirrors in closed loop since mid seventies - year of the first CDROM drive. You dont need trendy technobabble like AI for this task.

Re: Heliogen, backed by Gates, says it has achieved a solar breakthrough

#105

Post by trickstra » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 2:40 PM UTC

kjeetgill wrote: post #91

amelius wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you then solve this by having a bunch of photodiodes under the edge of each panel, indicating if the panel is placed correctly?

From my reading of the article, one of the big issues to overcome was cost of CSP vs Photo Voltaic . They're even using smaller flat mirrors that are less sophisticated since per panel costs add up fast. One of the advantages is that this takes 4 cameras across the full plant, not a per panel cost. That's just my reading of it, not asserting anything myself.

How many photodiodes it takes before you reach the cost of 4 cameras?

Re: Heliogen, backed by Gates, says it has achieved a solar breakthrough

#106

Post by whiteeyedwolf » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 3:33 PM UTC

hirundo wrote: post #29

jws wrote: post #15

One of my discarded project ideas was exactly this, but on a smaller scale. A steerable mirror on a mount with a camera for targeting. The idea was to place one on the ground outside a north facing window. The device would then busy itself reflecting the sun up into the room making a nice sunny patch on the ceiling to light the room. They could also be used to deliver extra light to windows with plants in them to gro…

Add similar software to a swarm of drones each carrying mylar film stretched on a lightweight rigid frame with a vertical tilt actuator, and you have a seriously dangerous weapon system on sunny days.

Thoughts on sonic weaponry in utilization case?

Re: Heliogen, backed by Gates, says it has achieved a solar breakthrough

#107

Post by ben509 » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 3:49 AM UTC

sanxiyn wrote: post #50

ben509 wrote: post #42

Another interesting problem this might solve is birds. Yes, domestic cats kill orders of magnitudes more birds, but that argument a. depends on relative scale that people don't grok, and b. coming from an energy company reinforces the preconception that they're callous. Add radar and a sufficiently smart AI, and they could turn a PR problem into a marketing pitch by showing birds flying through unscathed while the mi…

This is frankly a stupid problem caused by people who can't multiply, but I guess a stupid problem deserves a stupid solution.

Maybe it's a stupid solution, but it'd be fun as hell to make.