How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#101

Post by Yizahi » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 1:51 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #98

Yizahi wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, right, thank you for opening our collective eyes. I didn't know that it is USA who invaded my country, annexed territories as big as whole Belgium and killed tens of thousands soldiers and civilians only in recent years. I was too negative to the poor innocent Russia while all the time I should have known that it was USA all along. The BIGGER problem indeed.

You might be directly impacted, but in terms of most countries invaded or people killed over the last say 100 years I think the US is rather ahead. Making them a bigger problem for the world even if Russia is a bigger problem for you. Personally as an American I kind of like being part of the ‘evil’ empire. But, I can definitely understand why others might take issue with our actions.

USA killed more people that Russia/USSR over last 100 years? USA annexed more territories than Russia/USSR over last 100 years? Please tell me you are kidding. China is indisputable leader in killing civilians EVER in human history and also quite happy to annex nearby territories. Iran - about the same. If you want to glorify objectively worse entities just for the sake of hating on USA (justified or not) - feel free to do so, I have never seem USA haters to change their opinions.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#102

Post by surewhynat » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 1:54 PM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #91

surewhynat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread is not about Ukraine, but, if we must ... The protests in Kiev and other cities were violent and out of control. Ukraine was 6 months away from an election which they could have normally voted out their president, but, the people overthrew the government instead. Since then, the country has been so much worse off economically and socially. People have barely any money to pay their gas bills or buy luxury…

Apart from the stuff mentioned in the sibling comment, the numbers don't even pass a smell test. That's 89% turnout, with international observers being denied entry. Compared to presidential election 2010 where Crimea had only 63.1% voters that bothered to act.

Okay, it doesn't pass your smell test...

If there was another referendum today, and the people were given an option today, what do you think they would vote for?

You never hear from Crimeans complaining about the referendum result in any way.

Those people dodged a huge bullet and they know that. Ukraine is a mess, and perhaps one day when the fighting in Ukraine ends, when the corruption ends, someone should ask those people what they want to do.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#103

Post by bhouston » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 1:54 PM UTC

mmrezaie wrote: post #3

I think we are not that dependant on oil right now either and we are just used to continue the same failed tactics if the past. The people who make these decisions are just not making them economically and they are just used to continue the same policies.

Iran is in Israel's and Saudi Arabia's cross hairs. It is my feeling that the US is mostly antagonistic to Iran because of the influence of these two regional rivals of Iran.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#104

Post by mensetmanusman » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 2:08 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #59

thdrdt wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the western world 'debt' is also promoted as freedom. So it's all about your definition of what freedom is. My personal definition of freedom is 'free of debt'

Freedom is basically capital, because the US is a plutocracy. You're either lucky enough to inherit economic freedom, or you can buy it - if you make enough money to be free of all debt and acquire substantial capital. The opportunities to do this are strictly limited and anyone starting cold is against very tough odds. And the activities that are rewarded are strongly biased towards rent-seeking and monopolistic mar…

You are a billionaire or in prison in the US?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#105

Post by forgetfulusr » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 2:08 PM UTC

elfexec wrote: post #38

entropyneur wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to dispute your point, but this strikes me as a rather wrong stick to measure countries' "badness". There's no difference between mistreating people within and outside of one's borders. Compared to the millions China is keeping in concentration camps the border tensions aren't even worth mentioning. Also, how does Iran not fit the same profile? It's currently #1 world news that their top official got bombed by th…

> Compared to the millions China is keeping in concentration camps the border tensions aren't even worth mentioning. It's millions now? Seems like every day, the propaganda keeps increasing the number. > It's currently #1 world news that their top official got bombed by the US while busy meddling in Iraqi affairs. So the country on the other side of the world that is bombing Iraqis is not meddling? Was it the general…

If only they had thrown in an anti-Russia propaganda in there they would've had me! /s we are way to easy to play with..

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#106

Post by selimthegrim » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

emilsedgh wrote: post #16

thdrdt wrote: post #7

Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…

Iran is still suffering heavily from that coup. That was the closest we ever were to a democracy. However, democracy is very fragile, specially at the beginning. And it was shattered and to this day, we never got as close. Tyrant regimes come and go and we still think what might've been. We could've easily been another France in middle east. Source: Iranian living in the U.S.

How was Mossadeq a democrat when he was starting to pay people off in the Majlis?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#107

Post by tiatia » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #89

viraptor wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran Where does that certainty come from? It's not like the US is known for finishing wars recently.

The last war USA "won" was WWII. For all that we spend on it, and for as many innocents as it destroys, our military cannot accomplish objectives that benefit the national interest. Which isn't surprising, because it has been optimized to waste resources, not to win.

"The last war USA "won" was WWII."

Well, in Europa is was a German-Russian war. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwKPFT-RioU

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#108

Post by selimthegrim » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

emilsedgh wrote: post #73

nexuist wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. If blood must be shed to end tyranny, perhaps it is a worthwhile gamble. The Iranian people gain nothing from allowing the current regime to grow. A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran, with a connected and educated populace capable of maintaining it. I think one of the main flaws in Iraq and Afghan…

You think waging war is the way to bring democracy to Iran? Iran is a country next to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. It's an enemy to _both_ Saudi Arabia and Israel. And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever? Iran is made of dozens of different ethnicities. What if it became a Libyia and different regions started a civil war? This is sickeni…

Please tell me that 'watan-farosh' MEK is not behind that link.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#109

Post by selimthegrim » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 2:18 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #72

Dinux wrote: post #15

And even nowadays that resentment against Great Britain from Iran is very much still alive, while we hear mostly about the US getting involved in these regions

For those interested, Jack Straw (former UK Foreign Secretary) wrote a book, "The English Job", about the history of the UK and Iran (but of course touching on a lot more) is very readable. Having been published in 2019, it's also pretty up-to-date. There is apparently a joke amongst diplomats that 'Iran is the only country in the world which still regards the United Kingdom as a superpower'. There is a phrase in Ira…

'Uncle Napoleon' might be helpful too

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#110

Post by quantummkv » Sat, Jan 04, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

nexuist wrote: post #64

dr_dshiv wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's really sad. Iran had/has so much potential.

In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. If blood must be shed to end tyranny, perhaps it is a worthwhile gamble. The Iranian people gain nothing from allowing the current regime to grow. A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran, with a connected and educated populace capable of maintaining it. I think one of the main flaws in Iraq and Afghan…

> The million dollar question is: will toppling Iran's government and ending the suffering of its citizenry under it be a net benefit for its people, or is the status quo shielding them from an even worse fate? How can you really know?

Let's see what happened the last time US toppled a government in the Middle East - You got the ISIS. Before that the US toppled a government. It created The Mujahedin, who are directly responsible for about every Islamic Terror attack anywhere in the world since the 80's. Before that the US toppled the democratic government in Iran. That is directly causing this.