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Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

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Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#101

Post by bootload »

edw519 wrote: post #51
jarek wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's just my millenial entitlement, but that strikes me as a bad strategy. Unless the business was a cleaning or maintenance company, cleaning the bathroom seems far removed from anything relevant to my work and is in essence busywork. Questions that immediately spring into mind: is this some weird attempt at saving money by having employees do both their job and cleaning? Is this supposed to be some hazing rit…

Did you understand the grandparent? This had nothing to do with relevance, busywork, hazing, saving money, or evaluating talent. It had a single purpose: to determine willingness to do an undesirable job. That's it. Which, interestingly, is just as important in a software start-up as it was in my father's business so many years ago.

@edw519, Joel talks about "willingness" in a similar example, this time reversed ~ http://www.inc.com/magazine/20081201/how-hard-could-it-be-my...

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#102

Post by Silhouette »

shasta wrote: post #88
Silhouette wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you on most of that, but I think this point is a little dangerous: > Avoid bad habits of sloth, Willingness to pitch in when hard work really is called for is a necessary and valuable trait, of course. However, working hard when you don't have to is wasteful, and too many people confuse the two. Sometimes, a natural inclination to be "lazy" is a lot like trying to avoid unnecessary work by being smart. I wou…

Being seen doing the dishes obviously made an impression on at least one employee. Maybe time optimization isn't the only factor?

> Maybe time optimization isn't the only factor?

Sure, that's possible, but could the CEO have been doing something else during the same time that would have made an even better impression, or that would have positively influenced more than "at least one" employee?

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#103

Post by jarek »

whatusername wrote: post #96
jrockway wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, "this is why I don't know anyone smart that works at Avis". No offense, but the day I have to work as a bank teller is the day I stop working for a bank.

And that is why Bank Teller software sucks.

No, bank software "sucks" because it's built on literally decades, plural, of old systems that can not ever be disturbed or lose data.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#104

Post by bigiain »

stoney wrote: post #90
Silhouette wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you on most of that, but I think this point is a little dangerous: > Avoid bad habits of sloth, Willingness to pitch in when hard work really is called for is a necessary and valuable trait, of course. However, working hard when you don't have to is wasteful, and too many people confuse the two. Sometimes, a natural inclination to be "lazy" is a lot like trying to avoid unnecessary work by being smart. I wou…

I think the uses of "sloth" and "lazy" here are quite importantly different. The idea of working smart by being lazy, really means (at least to me) coming up with a better solution than the obvious hard work, time consuming approach, then going off and doing something better with the time that you have saved. Sloth implies to me sitting around doing nothing. So: general sloth=bad;lazy approach to some tasks=good when…

Like most things, there's "good lazy" and "bad lazy" , and "good sloth" and "bad sloth".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Wall#Virtues_of_a_program...

In my experience, sometimes when I'm being "bad lazy", the "good lazy" outcomes happen anyway, but it's certainly not a recommended path to success...

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#105

Post by Xrissley »

Puzzling, the underlying arrogance of most people commenting against the article here. They really seem to have such a high view of themselves, their time, their value, the optimal use of all this by their employers, and a very low level of humility.

Sounds like most of them really never had to work (just work, do a job to get money in) hard for food, and are bathed in the comfort of having learned a bit of computer science or something modern that doesn't get you too dirty, being equipped with a well functioning brain, and with all that, theydo really seem to think that it makes them a marvel and a gift to mankind. Wonder how many of them will end up being good leaders.

Somehow they haven't motivated me to work for or with them. Guess that is a first clue.

(and _I_ am the first to know that _I_ don't have leadership quality. But I have had the chance to observe and work for amazing leaders. Humility always was a key point of their personality)

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#106

Post by alnayyir »

jarek wrote: post #98
alnayyir wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(Though I better be getting paid overtime for that weekend work if the schedule slip isn't the dev team's fault.) Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha... catches breath ...hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahha Not worked long in software eh?

Long enough to learn to say "no."

In my country, programmers work salary unless they're contractors and don't have any conception of overtime in their contracts.

Maybe things are different where you are.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#107

Post by Retric »

edw519 wrote: post #51
jarek wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's just my millenial entitlement, but that strikes me as a bad strategy. Unless the business was a cleaning or maintenance company, cleaning the bathroom seems far removed from anything relevant to my work and is in essence busywork. Questions that immediately spring into mind: is this some weird attempt at saving money by having employees do both their job and cleaning? Is this supposed to be some hazing rit…

Did you understand the grandparent? This had nothing to do with relevance, busywork, hazing, saving money, or evaluating talent. It had a single purpose: to determine willingness to do an undesirable job. That's it. Which, interestingly, is just as important in a software start-up as it was in my father's business so many years ago.

The problem is I would both clean the bathroom and continue looking for a job. Smile, pitch in, and quietly get the fuck out of there. Net cost me not much. Net cost to the company 10-30+k depending on how long I stay.

PS: Turnover at the 3-6 month period is the most expensive for a SW company. You just lost all that hiring momentum, wasted all that time getting someone up to speed, damage moral, and they leave before you get any real work out of them all at the same time.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#108

Post by blueben »

Retric wrote: post #107
edw519 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you understand the grandparent? This had nothing to do with relevance, busywork, hazing, saving money, or evaluating talent. It had a single purpose: to determine willingness to do an undesirable job. That's it. Which, interestingly, is just as important in a software start-up as it was in my father's business so many years ago.

The problem is I would both clean the bathroom and continue looking for a job. Smile, pitch in, and quietly get the fuck out of there. Net cost me not much. Net cost to the company 10-30+k depending on how long I stay. PS: Turnover at the 3-6 month period is the most expensive for a SW company. You just lost all that hiring momentum, wasted all that time getting someone up to speed, damage moral, and they leave befor…

You would screw over a company just because they made you do an undesirable job for exactly one day? Obviously the test works.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#109

Post by bugsy »

When I am a guest at someone's house I always stay and help clean up, and wash dishes. Love to do my share.

But it is foolish to be doing janitorial duties at work. A situation a few years ago will serve as an example. As an expert, my time was being billed out to clients at $150/hr and I was getting paid $50 of that. The company did not want to hire more engineers so I was working 60-100 billable hours every week, working massive overtime for which I was not paid since developers are "salary". I had not had a Saturday or Sunday off in over a year.

On top of all this, the company decided to save money by firing the janitorial service, which was being paid $15 an hour, and whose workers earned minimum wage. It was announced that engineers would take turns vacuuming, taking out the trash, and cleaning dishes and and even cleaning out the fridge.

I quit over that. Obviously because I wasn't a team player, right?

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#110

Post by jarek »

alnayyir wrote: post #106
jarek wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long enough to learn to say "no."

In my country, programmers work salary unless they're contractors and don't have any conception of overtime in their contracts. Maybe things are different where you are.

I'm paid salary and I'm under the impression that's the norm. Nevertheless there is a fairly standard work week and more than one way of compensation for exceeding that.
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