You can replace chemistry with math in his article (and he sort of mentions this in context near the end). I can't remember once being shown the physical problems that drove progress in math until I reached calculus. I remember being bored to tears in algebra 2, a class which was basically being taught as linear algebra + trigonometry. It wasn't until the following summer that I discovered 3d transforms, and a bunch…
> I can't remember once being shown the physical problems that drove progress in math until I reached calculus. Progress in math often (or usually) isn’t driven by physical problems, so there’s that. Just like progress in physics often (or usually) isn’t driven by “real world” problems. Discoveries are often made before applications are found. As a concrete example, number theory is an incredibly profound and fruitfu…
Why introductory chemistry is boring: a long-term historical perspective
101–110 of 143 posts
Re: Why introductory chemistry is boring: a long-term historical perspective
#102I always hated experiments in chemistry class, as it was always boring and trivial. Kids who liked it, did so because it was a time to slack off, watch colors change, play around with the props etc. It didn't help in understanding anything and was as detached from the rest of the chemistry lessons as if it was a subject to itself. Interestingly, as a student I also disliked whenever the book went in the direction tha…
This echoes my experience. It wasn't until I was 17 or so that I figured out through independent reading that there actually are ideas in scientific work. There's this weird kind of fake enthusiasm that always seems to be at the foundation of attempts to get kids "interested in science". Like the adults in charge also don't know what's interesting about it—or they're otherwise not "up for the task" as you say—so they…
It's been discussed a lot how STEM is seen by society as this dry useless thing, that adults can safely joke about the shared experience of how they hated it, got bad grades and have forgotten it all.
They'd like to spice it up, but have no idea how. So they say, "kids are visual", make it more exciting and flashy. Put more pictures and colors in the textbooks and write them with goofy fonts... It's basically symptomatic treatment, trying to alleviate the pain of the (so-imagined) "inherently painful" and dry STEM experience. And then there's another, stricter side who's like "don't make it too much fun, let them experience that pain, I had to do it too!". Both are missing the point.
I think I wouldn't have become a science-math-computer person if I hadn't had casual conversations with my chemist dad here and there, while driving, while walking. He didn't explicitly teach me this stuff, like let's sit down and learn chemistry, but instilled in me a sense of how abstract bookish stuff is connected to the real world and how it exists even outside the framework of school. It gave me the useful ability to disconnect the teacher from the subjects. Many students like the subjects taught by kind and inspiring teachers and hate those taught by boring or malicious ones. I never studied to please the teacher, but because I wanted to understand. If the teacher was bad, I just read the book or asked my dad who'd often point out misleading simplifications or outright falsehoods in what we were supposed to memorize and recite. Learning that something can be wrong "in the book" was also very helpful.
I think there are fundamental problems with the worldview that school instills in students. On a base level people learn to separate real life and school. When someone asks a quiz-like question, it seems to exists in schoolish-bookish universe and the answer is a lookup in school memories. For example, in these street interviews, when people are asked about some everyday, relevant question (e.g. when was World War II), many would answer "I was never good at [school subject X]" (e.g. history class), instead of saying, well grandpa often tells me about those times, it was in his youth, so about 70 years ago (just an illustrative example).
Re: Why introductory chemistry is boring: a long-term historical perspective
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
This echoes my experience. It wasn't until I was 17 or so that I figured out through independent reading that there actually are ideas in scientific work. There's this weird kind of fake enthusiasm that always seems to be at the foundation of attempts to get kids "interested in science". Like the adults in charge also don't know what's interesting about it—or they're otherwise not "up for the task" as you say—so they…
> There's this weird kind of fake enthusiasm that always seems to be at the foundation of attempts to get kids "interested in science". Like the adults in charge also don't know what's interesting about it It's been discussed a lot how STEM is seen by society as this dry useless thing, that adults can safely joke about the shared experience of how they hated it, got bad grades and have forgotten it all. They'd like t…
That may be an ingredient in what creates perspectives like ours: you have to have some exposure to actual scientific thought processes to get a sense that you're being served something inferior when it comes up.
Edit: I guess one thing that was kinda weird about my situation was that my dad's area of research wasn't in the set of mainstream sciences taught in public schools, so the 'official' sciences always remained separate in my mind until much later. Meanwhile I assumed chemistry/physics/biology/math were all just extremely dull.
Re: Why introductory chemistry is boring: a long-term historical perspective
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
If a teacher takes the practical applications angle, you can always ignore that part and just do the math. The reverse is more difficult. My linear algebra teacher didn't ground the work in anything and as student I had no idea that the vectors and matrices could be used for, say, computer graphics.
you can always ignore that part and just do the math No, not really at all. Most of applied math is raw calculations. A student interested in pure math is going to be bored to tears by that. They need challenging problems and proofs to work on. It’s like putting a gifted programmer in a data entry class and telling them to “just focus on the typing” as though people like programming for the keyboard work. For example…
IME K-12 math wasn't taught in a very engaging way regardless of whether one was interested in theory or applications. The people I knew that were into math all did after school and/or summer courses, although I don't know whether the interest came before or after their parents enrolled them in these supplements. Personally I did not think math was interesting until undergraduate, where I first gained an appreciation of the applied work and subsequently found myself interested in some pure math areas as well. I wish I had realized how cool math can be earlier on in my education- I do recall enjoying very early math, but I think by 5th grade I was unfortunately jaded.
I guess I ultimately wish high schools had a bit more diversity in classes. I don't know if this is feasible, but I feel by grades 11 and 12 it would be greatly beneficial if students had more choice between a number of focused electives. Even at my high school which was generally considered high quality, the upper level courses were largely the standard AP curricula, which at least in the case of biology was still very much a survey course. I don't think this helped students decide what they wanted to pursue enough, and it seems that freshman year of college for most people was largely a repeat. Why not let students get some sense of a couple subfields before they have to actually commit to something?
Online courses can maybe help but I feel they will have to be grounded somehow in the high schools to be fully effective. Anyways this got a bit off topic, but if anyone has any related information/thoughts I'd love to hear it- I am certainly interested in education but don't have much practical knowledge/experience outside of my own bubble at this time.
Re: Why introductory chemistry is boring: a long-term historical perspective
#105Re: Why introductory chemistry is boring: a long-term historical perspective
#106You can replace chemistry with math in his article (and he sort of mentions this in context near the end). I can't remember once being shown the physical problems that drove progress in math until I reached calculus. I remember being bored to tears in algebra 2, a class which was basically being taught as linear algebra + trigonometry. It wasn't until the following summer that I discovered 3d transforms, and a bunch…
Re: Why introductory chemistry is boring: a long-term historical perspective
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
What I hated was having to memorize orbitals in freshman chemistry, then after taking modern physics as a junior, the orbitals were deduced easily. Anyway, I hated chemistry, as it seemed all rote memorization. Physics was so much better. It’s also more applicable to RF.
Totally agree. The idea that chemistry is separate from physics is pretty dumb anyway. I'm kinda talking out of my blowhole here, but it seems the reason chemistry and biology are distinguished from physics is that there are a lot of emergent phenomenon that we didn't and in many cases still can't predict from the fundamental physics. But, it's still there. Maybe chemistry should be called molecular dynamics or somet…
Applying reduction to say "everyone young person should know everything" is hubris.
It's a practical division, at multiple levels. eg Specialization, profession, etc. Renaming (Molecular Dynamics) is just adding to the soup. Yes there is some overlap, but it's not worth trying to jam into the minds of students who dont have the drive or aptitude. re: Trying to teach everyone software development or CS
Re: Why introductory chemistry is boring: a long-term historical perspective
#108For my engineering degree, I had to pick between taking into to chem or intro to bio. Since I was an electrical engineer and didn't care for either subject, I put this requirement off until my senior year.
I took intro to chem because I thought it would be easier since I was mathematically inclined, but it was one of the worst educational experiences I had at university. The professor was clearly reciting the same notes he wrote 20 years earlier. The material was so trivial that the only way they could induce any sort of curve into the class was to put more questions on the exam than was reasonable to accomplish in the time period. The labs were abysmal, did not really teach any sort of generalizable lab skills, and never worked. If you asked the TAs for help, they would all gather on the far side of the lab and return 20 minutes later saying they never studied the copper cycle so they can't help you.
I dropped the class after my first exam out of frustration and decided to take intro to bio. Pretty much every complaint I had about the chemistry class was fixed in bio. The experiments even worked 9/10 times on the first try. Most importantly, though, I felt like I could take the knowledge I took from the class and use it in the future if the circumstance presented itself. Chemistry just confirmed I was able to count things properly, and I'd have no idea how to approach an actual chemical problem in the field.
Re: Why introductory chemistry is boring: a long-term historical perspective
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
On the other hand, understanding molecular bonding is much easier in organic chemistry. Inorganic chemistry mostly requires molecule-by-molecule computational solutions, whereas organic can get you quite far purely with rules of thumb. I majored in chemistry, and it was widely accepted that inorganic chemistry was "harder" because of the above.
My experience is exactly the opposite. Inorganic chemistry is mostly governed by the valencies of the elements reacting (and thermodynamics, of course) which are easily learned. Whereas organic chemistry is enormously complicated by the sizes and shapes of the molecules.
Re: Why introductory chemistry is boring: a long-term historical perspective
#110I've tutored people in how to do an experiment. They believed an experiment had failed when in reality they had learnt something useful. The experiment really fails when you learnt nothing, didn't get any useful result and it didn't help to confirm or deny anything. An inconclusive result is actually a signal that the experiment needs to be done better somehow - not that the experiment was a failure.
Science gets taught badly as some kind of dogma when experimental process is not understood. Plenty of people don't understand that the core of science is taking the position of not knowing why, coming up with a theory then finding experimental ways to confirm or deny and then improving the theory. They instead teach it as a set of facts, laws and rules. Ignorance of anything is punished or ridiculed. Challenging that dogma results in punishment.
"I don't know" is actually the first step towards real knowledge and discovery. Schools shouldn't teach that this is sinful. They confuse the essential background knowledge as the entire field. Just the facts. Only teach the facts and punish anyone who can't regurgitate them mindlessly.
How are you going to have enough humility to try several different approaches and accept being wrong on most of them if you're too scared to be wrong on even one of them? You have to accept being wrong. Anyone who isn't wrong often enough probably isn't asking or questioning hard, wide or large enough. You need to fail because if not, you're probably not experimenting. If you're not failing then you are not asking enough questions or your questions lack depth.
Rocket launches are a classic example. If you haven't failed at least multiple times you haven't actually tried hard enough. Difficult things require plenty of experimentation. You have to risk being wrong on each attempt. Try something new or confirm something is true. Better to explode on the launchpad during experimentation than lie about your level of understanding and risk some real payload or even worse, people's lives.
Writers have a similar refrain: if you haven't been rejected lately you aren't writing enough or you aren't pushing enough boundaries.