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Zwitterion: a web dev server that lets you import anything

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Re: Zwitterion: a web dev server that lets you import anything

#101

Post by tyingq »

kbumsik wrote: post #21
k__ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is.

No they are not. Standard DOM API is not i their roadmap. There is no point of doing it when WASM has to be loaded by JS anyway. Currently DOM libraries using WASM are implemented by importing JS wrapper functions.

>Standard DOM API is not in their roadmap.

It is...

"To realize the high-level goals of (1) integrating well with the existing Web platform and (2) supporting languages other than C++, WebAssembly needs to be able to...reference DOM and other Web API objects directly from WebAssembly code...call Web APIs (passing primitives or DOM/GC/Web API objects) directly from WebAssembly without calling through JavaScript..."

https://github.com/WebAssembly/proposals/issues/16

Re: Zwitterion: a web dev server that lets you import anything

#102

Post by kaoD »

kerkeslager wrote: post #68
andybak wrote: post #12

Can anyone point me to a workflow where the cognitive load is similar to how it was in the good old days? i.e. some thing that does everything for me apart from the bit where I write application and presentation code? That mostly just works and doesn't require me to understand the whole stack. Because when I switch to other languages/environments I can most remain blissfully unaware of the plumbing that keeps the thi…

If you don't need to support older browsers, just write raw JS and use module imports. This means that you're pulling down a lot of different files instead of one big blob, but a lot of those files will already be cached in the user's browser from CDNs anyway. Yes, you don't get JSX this way, but I've always seen people's obsession with syntactic sugar as bikeshedding. Typing out code isn't the bottleneck for develop…

> a lot of those files will already be cached in the user's browser from CDNs anyway

Not anymore.

https://www.jefftk.com/p/shared-cache-is-going-away

Re: Zwitterion: a web dev server that lets you import anything

#103

Post by kerkeslager »

cogman10 wrote: post #72
kerkeslager wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ember.js is the highest-cognitive-load framework I've ever used. Not only do you have to understand all the bundling of JS, but you have to understand Ember's naming conventions and project structure, which has a lot of corners and edge cases. The basic problem is that they give you a bunch of configuration points and if you don't know what configuration point to insert your code at, you're either going to be writing…

They burned me with the "rails" problem. Ember and RoR are two projects that have really turned me against overarching frameworks. Both have gone through periods of crazy backwards breaking and paradigm shifts that have left me burnt out.

Agreed.

I work in Django, and have a love-hate relationship with it. The main selling point is the Django ORM, which keeps me coming back, but even that is just the best of a lot of bad options. And a lot of Django patterns (class-based views, template tags, middleware, signals) are just obfuscating features that are handled much more simply with raw Python features. They let you write 80% of your behavior with 20% of the effort, but drastically impede your progress on the other 20%, and create debugging nightmares.

Beware projects with impressive quickstart guides.

Re: Zwitterion: a web dev server that lets you import anything

#104

Post by kerkeslager »

kaoD wrote: post #102
kerkeslager wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't need to support older browsers, just write raw JS and use module imports. This means that you're pulling down a lot of different files instead of one big blob, but a lot of those files will already be cached in the user's browser from CDNs anyway. Yes, you don't get JSX this way, but I've always seen people's obsession with syntactic sugar as bikeshedding. Typing out code isn't the bottleneck for develop…

> a lot of those files will already be cached in the user's browser from CDNs anyway Not anymore. https://www.jefftk.com/p/shared-cache-is-going-away

Interesting.

That means that the module approach isn't faster than bundling, but with HTTP2, the module approach shouldn't be slower than bundling.

Re: Zwitterion: a web dev server that lets you import anything

#105

Post by lastmjs »

tyingq wrote: post #73
Etheryte wrote: post #55

A couple of meta suggestions: The submission title is provocative and personally I'd say misleading. As can be seen in other comments, it can lead to badly framed discussions and general dislike about the project. The project readme doesn't even mention Webpack, so why is the leading phrase "Webpack killer" in the title? The repository readme is very long. As a dev, I'm looking to capture the core concepts of a proje…

Agree on the title. I'd have had a different reaction to this if the HN title hadn't claimed it was supposed to be a "webpack killer" .

Alright, I'm feeling bad about have a misleading title and I'd like to fix it. I can't change the title now without removing this post and reposting it. Do you have a suggestion for what I should do?

Re: Zwitterion: a web dev server that lets you import anything

#106

Post by lastmjs »

Etheryte wrote: post #55

A couple of meta suggestions: The submission title is provocative and personally I'd say misleading. As can be seen in other comments, it can lead to badly framed discussions and general dislike about the project. The project readme doesn't even mention Webpack, so why is the leading phrase "Webpack killer" in the title? The repository readme is very long. As a dev, I'm looking to capture the core concepts of a proje…

Great feedback on the README, thank you

Re: Zwitterion: a web dev server that lets you import anything

#107

Post by netghost »

tylerl wrote: post #84

I'm confused by the tagline: ”Zwitterion lets you get back to the good old days of web development." Like, what made the good days go bad? What is this supposed to be better than?

You know, when you had to support ie6 and php was cutting edge, the good old days!

I jest of course, but while frontend tooling has gotten quite complex, there's a good reason. Transpiling, minifying, and tree shaking are non trivial, and pretty much a requirement if you want to build a rich client (though not everyone needs one).

Re: Zwitterion: a web dev server that lets you import anything

#108

Post by tyingq »

lastmjs wrote: post #105
tyingq wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree on the title. I'd have had a different reaction to this if the HN title hadn't claimed it was supposed to be a "webpack killer" .

Alright, I'm feeling bad about have a misleading title and I'd like to fix it. I can't change the title now without removing this post and reposting it. Do you have a suggestion for what I should do?

An editor might notice your comment and fix it. That said, your comments weren't here when I first saw this. Now they are, so there's lots more context. It's probably not an issue now.

Re: Zwitterion: a web dev server that lets you import anything

#109

Post by ravenstine »

kerkeslager wrote: post #98
ravenstine wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, when was the last time you used it? The Ember of today is a lot different from the Ember of 2015, and even the Ember of 2018. As of a week ago, it's now fully switched to a component library that can be used independently of the framework, and they're now template-only by default. It'd certainly be a shame if you completely gave up on it because of a version still using Ember.View. EDIT: Forgot to mentio…

The last time I used it was early 2017. However, I also remember that the rapid breaking of reverse-compatibility was also a problem. The fact that Ember is very different over time is a bug, not a feature. To Ember's credit, their documentation is superb, and that includes detailed migration plans with each release. All the problems I ran into over time were solvable with the "RTFM" strategy. But I would rather use…

That's funny, because my perspective is the opposite on both points. I actually appreciate that they've been able to move forward with new ideas without worrying too much about backward compatibility. (though usually both new and deprecated features are moved into modules that can be imported separately) As far as documentation goes, well, I think it leaves something to be desired. If you like dozens of broken links, the Ember guides are for you. hahaha

Your criticism is totally fair, though. Part of the reason why I asked is because I'm going to be giving a talk at an Ember meetup I'll be hosting in a few weeks and part of it might be about why people are choosing not to use Ember and how we can make it better. So thanks for providing your perspective.

Re: Zwitterion: a web dev server that lets you import anything

#110

Post by lastmjs »

chrshawkes wrote: post #58
scient wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he is pretty spot on. JS community is infamous for the constant replacement of tools with the next shiny thing, which are all built on a house of cards (one-line npm packages). I would rather see some more serious tools being put out and matured instead of this constant running around. My own personal theory is that because the barrier of entry is so low, people get a little too excited about being a contribu…

Correct. In no way is this tool a webpack killer. Webpack solves a lot of problems that clearly this author of this post is not familiar with based on the clickbaity title.

I believe most if not all of the missing features can be addressed and eventually Zwitterion could replace Webpack. I believe that non-bundlers will replace bundlers. Also, not all of the features Webpack provides I believe are necessary (like bundling) in forward-facing applications.
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