How My School and District Failed its Students • Hacker News Board

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#101

Post by brc » Tue, Feb 08, 2011, 5:40 AM UTC

frossie wrote: post #6

maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws I didn't downvote you, but I strongly disagree. I personally don't want to live in a society full of kids (did you see his percentages - up to 25%!!) that are considered unmanageable at age 12. If they are unmanageable at age 12, what do you think they are going to be at age 25? Angry, illiterate, jobless oh and yeah, still unmanageable. Or, in jail and unmanageabl…

I wouldn't want to see truancy laws abolished, but in many cases they have little effect.

Perhaps, from a certain age, a choice is given ; attend school, and don't disrupt, or end up in some type of system which is far less free than the school system. I'm thinking some type of national service system, in which the kids are away from their home during the week, have freedoms restricted (as in freedom to do what they want after hours) and have extra (skill gaining) tasks to complete outside of regular schooling. The service could be anything from national parks management to military service, at the students choice upon enrolment. The idea would be to locate them away from family, friends and influences, and work with people who demand respect and hard work.

There needs to be a credible threat to the bad behaviour. Getting told off, or threatening to contact the parents has no effect if the parents aren't on board.

I agree that you just don't want to release unmotivated kids onto the streets, bored and with no skills and no future. It's not good for society, it's not good for the student.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#102

Post by bzbarsky » Tue, Feb 08, 2011, 5:48 AM UTC

maxharris wrote: post #91

jseliger wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws." I agree with you in theory, but in practice this doesn't seem to work out so well. Look, for example, at the chapter in Dan Ariely's book Predictably Irrational : about prebinding commitments and universities. In one experiment, he (and his co-authors) took a group of similar classes and divided them in threes: one group was told that it could turn…

Just what are these supposedly negative consequences of abolishing truancy laws? The disruptive students mentioned in the article didn't learn anything in school.

The negative consequence would be to have these teenagers free to go about town during the day raising hell.

Clearly not a problem for the school itself. But it suddenly reminds everyone else that these kids exist, and we can't have that, right?

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#103

Post by rick888 » Tue, Feb 08, 2011, 6:04 AM UTC

mkramlich wrote: post #73

The elephant in the room was race. I'd bet 90% of the problems were caused by kids of a particular race. Unfortunately many public discussions involving it devolve into demonization of the messenger or blame gaming. My second point was that I suspect the easiest fix would be to adopt a zero tolerance policy or three-strikes-then-expelled. The harder solution, though it is better in the long term, is to do something t…

"The elephant in the room was race. I'd bet 90% of the problems were caused by kids of a particular race. Unfortunately many public discussions involving it devolve into demonization of the messenger or blame gaming."

When 90% of a specific race statistically have a broken family with no father figure around, it's no wonder that the kids turn out the way they do. It's a vicious cycle.

Another problem is that because the kids are getting nothing at home, they would need tons extra attention in school. How can a teacher possibly fill the role of parent when she has many other students that also need the same kind of attention?

Until we can come to terms with things like this, the problems will never go away.

"The harder solution, though it is better in the long term, is to do something that ensures that the parents take more responsibility and make better life choices and set a better example both for their own kids and their neighborhoods."

This is the problem right here. It's the parents at home, but you can't force parents to do anything...and you probably won't ever be able to, unless we were under some sort of totalitarian dictatorship.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#104

Post by skunkworks » Tue, Feb 08, 2011, 6:05 AM UTC

jmm wrote: post #8

maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

Ha. The pickle here is that we (the government, the bleeding hearts, those capable of compassion) have to acknowledge that these kids were dealt a pretty bad hand, and that they are, after all, still kids. So we owe them a fair shot and some patience -- it's not acceptable to give up on them as products of the system. Because in one way or another we're part of the system. And they're kids. My sister participated in…

Came here just to chime in about Season 4 of The Wire. For those who haven't seen it, a large portion of it focuses on a new school initiative where disruptive students are removed from their classes and isolated in a smaller, more focused setting to work out their issues (if at all possible). The controversy is the perception it gives of putting the troubled kids through a lesser education, which is ironic considering the sort of education they could get would be qualitatively different and better for them overall.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#105

Post by jordan0day » Tue, Feb 08, 2011, 6:30 AM UTC

radioactive21 wrote: post #80

PARENTING. The root cause in all of these issues is parenting. If the parents don't bother to care about their kid's education, it's already lost. The education and school system is part of the problem, but you can trace the child's inability to learn back to the parents. 1) Parents dont care about the child's learning 2) The child realizes the parents dont care and so they mess around in class 3) Teacher and school…

While I'm sure your premise is entirely correct, blaming parenting is essentially punting on the issue. It might be entirely accurate, but it doesn't help any, because it is one thing that can't be changed by the teacher or school administrator.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#106

Post by Zakharov » Tue, Feb 08, 2011, 6:31 AM UTC

I think the most immediately obvious solution to the problem of disruptive students is to separate them from the other students, and put them into a separate class. However, someone who enters that class at age 10 isn't going to learn anything, as the entire class is full of disruptive students, and they'll be stuck in the disruptive class for the rest of their schooling, after which they'll be released into society with few useful skills and a lot of problems. Also, very few good teachers will voluntarily work with the disruptive class.

One solution is to create a separate school with an educational model tailored to the problem, such as a military academy. This only works if there is a high enough population density to fill that school, the educational model actually works, and parents are willing to admit the problem and send their kids to that school.

There are a lot of disruptive students who are best served by going through the normal school system with a moderate amount of discipline when they act up. Many of these kids don't want to be in school, and would prefer to be at home playing video games, or barring that, in an easy, low-effort class. Allowing these kids to skip school, take easy classes, or putting them in a separate system risks allowing them to jeopardize their own future because of the impatience and short-term thinking common to almost all teenagers.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#107

Post by michaeldhopkins » Tue, Feb 08, 2011, 6:34 AM UTC

kleinsch wrote: post #46

kijinbear wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Make parents responsible for their kids. Right now a lot of parents treat school as daycare for their kids, they don't care what happens there as long as the kids aren't at home. Absolutely agreed. There's very little that a school can do for a kid if the parents don't care what the kid does at school. I'm not sure the solution needs to involve expulsions, but parents definitely need to have a greater responsibilit…

In most Teach for America schools, the choice for some families isn't between parents working to pay for college vs being involved in their child's school. It's a choice between parents working vs the family not eating. When the parents are struggling with subsistence, it's not surprising that they're less concerned with their kids grades.

In these cases it is important for families to pull together. I would rather see the children get jobs and help feed the family than waste away in a school learning nothing because the parents are fighting off starvation.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#108

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 08, 2011, 6:34 AM UTC

jmm wrote: post #8

maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

Ha. The pickle here is that we (the government, the bleeding hearts, those capable of compassion) have to acknowledge that these kids were dealt a pretty bad hand, and that they are, after all, still kids. So we owe them a fair shot and some patience -- it's not acceptable to give up on them as products of the system. Because in one way or another we're part of the system. And they're kids. My sister participated in…

[deleted]

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#109

Post by wisty » Tue, Feb 08, 2011, 6:35 AM UTC

mannicken wrote: post #75

michaelchisari wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my knowledge of radical education approaches like Summerhill or Ferrer's Modern School, I would agree with that, with one caveat: Students don't have to attend class. They just have to go to school. They can choose, on a daily basis, what class they want to be in. If they disrupt, they're kicked out of class for the day, since attendance at that class is a voluntary association. To get credit and a grade for a c…

So how is this different from jail? You're forced to be somewhere you hate, unable to go outside, for a part of your life just because you were born?

Jailers are not very professional, and are allowed to treat you like livestock.

Teachers are professionals who are generally trying to help you become a better person (even if a few degenerate in Stanford Prison Experiment style guards, and they are the ones some people really remember).

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#110

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 08, 2011, 6:37 AM UTC

SystemOut wrote: post #40

maxklein wrote: post #36

I come from a family of educators & private school owners, and if a teacher cannot handle a disruptive class, then we change the teacher. Children are ALWAYS disruptive. It's the natural state of things. Some teachers can solve the problem, and some can't. If a teacher cannot solve the problem, it's not the fault of the Government, or the Community, or the Principal or the Students. It's the fault of the teacher. It'…

Your disruptive is most likely different from this teacher's disruptive. Unless your private school has the same requirements and policies of the public school system I find it difficult to see how your comparison and opinion holds any water whatsoever. Most private schools that I have visited don't admit or will expel any student that is disruptive on a regular basis which would mean the teacher has a way to enforce…

[deleted]