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Working for a startup makes less sense

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Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#101

Post by kasey_junk »

sokoloff wrote: post #86
munk-a wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Briefly to begin, I'm going to read the above extremely uncharitably, not in an effort to besmirch aeternum but instead to try and tear down some terrible guidelines about life choices that I've seen going around. Here follows my translation of the advice above: > Yes you will probably make more at an established company, but your rate of growth can be much higher at a startup. You'd personally benefit more from work…

It sounds like you shouldn’t go to a startup. I’ve done a mix of both (from #1 hire out of 2 total engineers all the way to a Fortune 25). Across the board, I’ve found the smaller the better (more enjoyable, more learning, more energy, more urgency, better colleagues). Yeah, there’s no formal time laid out to do step X in the course of development. There’s the chance that you won’t make payroll someday. It’s definite…

In my experience it’s the team more than the size/lifecycle of the firm. I’ve worked on teams hitting on all cylinders in large and small companies. Similarly I’ve had bad teams in those environments and all sizes in between.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#103

Post by adriang133 »

senordevnyc wrote: post #65

Strongly agree with this. I just did about seven weeks of interviewing in NYC for senior iOS roles, at both startups and big tech companies. To be frank, it was a total shitshow. Especially on the startup side. Here’s some of the bullshit I faced interviewing at early stage companies before accepting an offer literally 2.5x as high as the (multiple) offers that startups made. 1. Shitty equity: one startup wanted me t…

Well, if the only thing you care about is compensation and work/life balance then of course, you should never work at a startup. There can be benefits though, arguably better personal development, a broader view of the entire tech stack, and potentially more personal satisfaction.

Of course, if the difference is 2.5x then it's a no brainer.. I wouldn't take more than a 20-30% cut to work at a startup.

One thing I absolutely agree with you on is the option exercise window. I think it's pretty common in the startup world, but I can't really understand WHY. I mean your options at a startup are already worth less than stocks at a public company, and they still do this shit ? With all the extra risk you'd imagine they'd have to get rid of the liquidity window just so they can compete a bit better with the big guys.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#104

Post by sokoloff »

munk-a wrote: post #92
sokoloff wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you shouldn’t go to a startup. I’ve done a mix of both (from #1 hire out of 2 total engineers all the way to a Fortune 25). Across the board, I’ve found the smaller the better (more enjoyable, more learning, more energy, more urgency, better colleagues). Yeah, there’s no formal time laid out to do step X in the course of development. There’s the chance that you won’t make payroll someday. It’s definite…

I'd rather educate the population on the pitfalls of startups so that people going into them are less naive and so that the experience of working there can be more enjoyable and fairly compensated. I have really enjoyed working at small companies as well - not two person startups working on hopes and dreams, but companies under a year old that are struggling to stablize their offering of a product that they know ther…

What problems do we see that are evidence that government intervention is needed or would be helpful?

I see a lot of people very much willingly freely entering into contracts that are beneficial overall for society. That many startups fail and few result in king’s ransom payouts for employees who put up no money to form the company seems ok and preferable to an environment where government has a heavy role in picking startups, regulating work, or otherwise mucking things up.

If a couple of my buddies and I want to work together and want to work as hard as humanly possible at it, why ought that be disallowed?

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#105

Post by soup10 »

senordevnyc wrote: post #65

Strongly agree with this. I just did about seven weeks of interviewing in NYC for senior iOS roles, at both startups and big tech companies. To be frank, it was a total shitshow. Especially on the startup side. Here’s some of the bullshit I faced interviewing at early stage companies before accepting an offer literally 2.5x as high as the (multiple) offers that startups made. 1. Shitty equity: one startup wanted me t…

>watching them get squeezed by big tech companies offering sky high comp fills me with glee.

Enjoy your new life as a corporate drone!

Note to the salty drones in the comments below: I started a business that was passively profitable for years and now pretty much just work on what interests me

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#106

Post by librish »

It seems like start-ups could catch up, at least somewhat, by offering more stock. Right now founders are still ending up with an order of magnitude or more stock than the first few employees.

There are certainly situations where that makes sense but if the founders are adding extreme value compared to the first few employees perhaps they should only end up with twice as much stock. That would free up a lot of equity for early employees.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#107

Post by throwaway112234 »

Here's where I've been:

- worked at a startup out of college for 85k max plus significant equity (never amounted to anything). Stayed too long.

- worked at a later-stage startup starting at 120k, peaking at 130k. Got some stock options there (haven't amounted to anything yet)

- took a job at FAANG starting at 400k, plus some stock options. Currently at this job for > 600k base. Plus stock options.

While at FAANG, I created a tool that we open-sourced. I've had several VCs contact me to see if I want to try turning that into a company, but by my math it would be a lot of work for no gain over what my salary already is. I already get paid to work on this OSS thing, but I also get to work on other things - and on the OSS thing it's pretty clear cut what I need to prioritize, since my priority user base works with me at FAANG.

For me, startups have a 0/2 track record of delivering value. Being able to net more than I make as an IC seems pretty unlikely, and trying would be a whole lot of pain and sacrifice. The "faster growth as a founder" idea seems to be conditioned on the assumption that you'll succeed enough to pay yourself more than you make now, and/or be able to exit at an amount that will make up for the opportunity cost of getting paid well in the meantime while having a sane work/life balance. YMMV.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#108

Post by bcrosby95 »

Answerawake wrote: post #58

"To make the situation worse, the very good engineers, the ones who could truly help build a tech company from the ground up from day 1, were getting offers so exorbitant they could not possibly fathom to turn them down." Ok I have seen this written every now and then. What does this person look like and how do I become one given a willing to sacrifice everything else? I can not find a good answer to this question. E…

I don't know if it's universal, but everyone I know that gets offers like this tend to solve the higher level problem.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#109

Post by usaar333 »

aeternum wrote: post #19

Yes you will probably make more at an established company, but your rate of growth can be much higher at a startup. I worked at a large tech company for 3 years before joining a startup, and learned more in the first month at the startup than the full 3 years at the large tech company. I was able to design and implement a service in a matter of days, whereas at the large tech company those 3 days would easily spent c…

I'd even take the position that if you are able/willing to work hard and grow fast, a start-up (or more precisely a high paying, high growth unicorn) will likely pay more than an established company - because you can grow faster and become more valuable (and thus compensated) in a higher-growth environment where the only limit is yourself.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#110

Post by mghfreud »

ravedave5 wrote: post #54
scarmig wrote: post #47

1) People say you learn a lot more in a startup than in a BigTechCo. I don't think this is true: I've gotten far more skills during BigTechCo stints than at startups. YMMV. 2) A new grad at a startup gets, what, $100k in salary and some equity? If we're talking a three year stint at a startup, you're effectively asking a worker to invest ~$500k in exchange for that hypothetical equity. In the broadest strokes (obviou…

I've worked with startup employees who knew 15 technologies - all of them poorly. They had zero best practices because it was go fast 24/7. It was guys right out of school thrown right into the mix so they didn't get the guidance of more senior devs.

I just made a move to a small (~1000 people company) from Google and I feel you. The code quality is terrible, they do not write maintainable/modular code and worse, they do not do design. They suffer from this(there is always another corner case that they did not take into account because they did not communicate well with the customer) but they still do not take any steps towards the right direction.
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