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Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

signal.org

101–110 of 153 posts

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#101
I think I know the answer already, but just in case: is there a way to use Signal to communicate with users using Whatsapp? IOW, can I receive Whatsapp messages in Signal?

The only reason I use Whatsapp is because it's what all my contacts use. It's everywhere. It's the de facto standard for text communication. And I hate the app. I hate its guts.

I read that whatsapp implemented the signal protocol, does that mean anything with respect to being able to communicate with people using a different app? Because I was hoping so, but I can't find a way to see my whatsapp messages in signal.

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#102
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to keep digging this hole for myself because I think there is some amount of treasure to be found. I'm also interested to see how far out of touch I am. There are tiers of conversation. Letters between famously literate people or during times of war have a value proposition on an entirely different scale to group chat messages. It's about the value that the individual assigns to the content of the conversat…

> There are tiers of conversation. Letters between famously literate people or during times of war have a value proposition on an entirely different scale to group chat messages. Only in retrospect. At the time, it's impossible to know. We happen to have (some of) Picasso's childhood artwork. What might it be like if we had da Vinci's and Bosch's and that of the Lascaux Caves artists? Or look at the way Pepys' diary…

> Destroying information now is expressing 100% confidence that nobody will have use for it later.

Or an acknowledgement that it might have the capability to be used against you later.

Would you be happy for every word you ever said, in public or private, to be recorded and transcribed and searchable just in case it becomes an "important source to historians", or just as likely "an important source of parallel reconstruction data for $yourCountry{'nsaEquivalent'}"???

We never got a record of Pepy's bar discussions, only what he chose to record in his diary. I'm not sure we need my Signal messages stored for posterity either. Read my blog or Reddit posts, other stuff was intended and should stay private.

There's a good reason a bunch of interesting bars banned Glassholes...

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#103
I really hope Signal takes over the world from Whatsapp. I hate Whatsapp and yet I am forced to use it due to all my friends / family / parents use of it. I try to fight but is hard and currently FB mess and WA are the only ones with a consistent reliability of delivering notifications promptly, while rest of chat apps either are too hard to use for non-computer people or they lose notifications. I mean, c'mon Microsoft!!! Is it really that hard to make Skype reliable again?!!

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#104
post #101

I think I know the answer already, but just in case: is there a way to use Signal to communicate with users using Whatsapp? IOW, can I receive Whatsapp messages in Signal? The only reason I use Whatsapp is because it's what all my contacts use. It's everywhere . It's the de facto standard for text communication. And I hate the app. I hate its guts. I read that whatsapp implemented the signal protocol, does that mean…

Yup, you guessed right. By default that's a no. However, you can do a cow-helicopter by using a 3rd party that will be a proxy between your signal account and your whatsapp account. Hell, you can do whatever you want between any 2 services with a 3rd party. Problem is, you still need an account on both ends.

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#105

What I really want from Signal is the ability to use it as an application transport. In particular, I want to authorise certain people to request my phone's location. At the moment I share it with Google so I can share it with friends or family, which sucks.

Maybe ask the writers of Mr. Robot. They figured it out!

Please. I hope that's sarcasm. Because if it's not, then may I steer you clear of that annoying series and into Breaking Bad + its follow up Better Call Saul?

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#106
post #2

Again, in the theme of "features every group messaging system had already, but Signal didn't, because they hadn't figured out a way to implement it without turning Signal's central servers into a database of who's talking to who about what". Signal didn't even have user profiles until recently, for the same reason. Here, they've slightly expanded the state of the art in MAC-based anonymous credentials to accomplish t…

Honestly, the one and only feature I'm missing in Signal that would let me use it and recommend it to everyone without reservations (rather than exclusively for ephemeral-only communication) is the ability to keep identity and full message history when moving to a new device. Today, on iOS, you can't move your Signal history to a new device, and on Android you can only do so by manually making an encrypted backup fil…

> Is there something I'm missing that makes this a hard problem?

Yes. Pretty much the entire security model of Signal underpinned by this UX compromise. The way signal works at the moment, you sign up for an account with your phone number, your device generates a secret, and that secret is used to secure all your communication. You can pass that secret around devices (as long as you have a device that has it - or just the original phone, I can’t remember). You are also responsible for making sure the people you talk to are really who they say they are. When you first add a contact, it’s up to you to make sure they’re not an imposter, and if they have to reset their account their secret changes, and you have to verify who they are again. If somebody takes over their phone number on a new device, they have to generate a new secret, and while they may succeed in impersonating the person (depending on how vigilant their contacts are), they at least won’t get access to the message history.

To allow for recovery of message history, you have to escrow the secret somewhere. If you give it to the service provider, then the security model is thrown out the window, and you just invented FB Messenger. If you give it to the user to escrow, then you’ve just kicked the can down the road, because a consumer is just as likely to lose a secret as they are their device, and the ways they may choose to store it will make the whole system less secure for essentially no UX gain.

This is an unavoidable trade off. If you want the service provider to be able to recover your account, then they (or at least somebody in addition to you) has to have access to your secret. If you want your messages to be private, then you can’t allow for a 3rd party to be able to recover your account.

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#107

Using a throwaway for obvious reasons... I am grateful these are being worked on because they are extremely needed for some use cases. I have been part of a group organizing protest in Beirut and I was surprised there was no clearly go to app that provided the security features we need. We started off with WhatSapp because that's what everyone used before security became a concern. We then moved to Signal mostly to g…

Except for the "no screenshots" everything else is implementable, but as you already know no app has them all. But since you're a group, make one. I mean world is full of freelancers so hire one and create what you need. Better, make it open-source and publish it on Github so anyone can review its code and point bugs/bad implementations.

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the one and only feature I'm missing in Signal that would let me use it and recommend it to everyone without reservations (rather than exclusively for ephemeral-only communication) is the ability to keep identity and full message history when moving to a new device. Today, on iOS, you can't move your Signal history to a new device, and on Android you can only do so by manually making an encrypted backup fil…

> Is there something I'm missing that makes this a hard problem? Yes. Pretty much the entire security model of Signal underpinned by this UX compromise. The way signal works at the moment, you sign up for an account with your phone number, your device generates a secret, and that secret is used to secure all your communication. You can pass that secret around devices (as long as you have a device that has it - or jus…

> To allow for recovery of message history, you have to escrow the secret somewhere.

You seem to be missing the point here: this isn't even about storing your data on someone else's computer with some kind of key escrow, this is about local backups not even working. Apple only recently implemented iMessage "sync", but before that (and still now), iMessage data was backed up to your Mac and accessible in your backup, without any concern about it being on some server or key escrow issues. Signal is simply missing the ability to get your own data out of the app on iOS. (And like, to really underscore how this is not a fundamental issue with Signal, their Android app does have a data export feature. They just don't think this is important enough to prioritize for some crazy reason.)

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#109
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there something I'm missing that makes this a hard problem? Yes. Pretty much the entire security model of Signal underpinned by this UX compromise. The way signal works at the moment, you sign up for an account with your phone number, your device generates a secret, and that secret is used to secure all your communication. You can pass that secret around devices (as long as you have a device that has it - or jus…

> To allow for recovery of message history, you have to escrow the secret somewhere. You seem to be missing the point here: this isn't even about storing your data on someone else's computer with some kind of key escrow, this is about local backups not even working. Apple only recently implemented iMessage "sync", but before that (and still now), iMessage data was backed up to your Mac and accessible in your backup,…

Yeah that’s true. They should allow encrypted backups to be stored in iCloud backups (they intentionally exclude this for some reason). But even then, this is a feature that will only ever be used by highly motivated individuals. The Android backups are useless if you lose your 30 digit secret. I agree their position on this is shit, but I can’t imagine it’s a barrier to mainstream adoption.

Re: Technology Preview: Signal Private Group System

#110
post #95
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a client for Signal, rubberhose cryptoanalysis is a much bigger issue. Here is a story what has happened to Doubi (SSr developer.) He was a very well aware of anonymity risks, and he evaded police for years on end. China literally tried to do geolocate him by turning off the internet in entire cities, but to no result — he caught on to that, and started randomising his release timing, and avoiding releasin…

Pardon my ignorance but I'm unable to find much about this story... and the links you posted are hard to piece together with this narrative. Not even doubting it, just wondering if there's more of a source that's laid out (work/timeline/etc)? It's supremely interesting and should probably be more well known if it's not already.

Most of what I know was found by people on Doubi's forum which now went down. Near nothing about that in English besides stating the fact that he is gone now, that he got a term, and that his Twitter was the most likely source of his ID leak as deduced from public records about his case.

Early accounts explored the possibility of Chinese police exploiting SMS gateway, and password reset abuse, but it has since been confirmed that even users who lived for years in the West got deanonymised, and their relatives got harassed. MSS/police having fresh twitter user DB is the most probable explanation at this point.

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