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Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

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Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#101

Post by padolsey »

eropple wrote: post #66
padolsey wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It wont understand what it is to be human and mortal, But it won't need to. All it will need to do is manifest the same end-product via whatever means, no matter how vacuous or computational that means may truly be. The suffering of an artist is relevant only inasmuch as it is responsible for producing the art. If the same end-product can be manifested via a mere computation then our criteria of "art" is still sati…

> In a world in which provenance cannot be established, the ostensible mortality of the artist becomes moot. This is a real hot take to be asserting as blithe fact.

> This is a real hot take to be asserting as blithe fact.

Without knowing what is truly born of human hands, what value can art have? Our heuristics of establishing 'real' art are easy to manipulate. If we are presented with a soul-breaking poem and weep uncontrollably then its merit is regardless of its mortal provenance.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#102

Post by h5aeqhjae4 »

smattiso wrote: post #55

Are we losing something as humans by automating so much? I mean I'm all for technical progress but at some point our computers will have killed so much of what makes us humans. Chess, go, driving, flying, math, written language, music... when does it stop? The standard answer is that we will automate all the dull parts of living and allow everybody to work in some sort of higher order capacity. That sounds great and…

Go was never humans' game to begin with. It's a game intrinsic to all forms of space-based warfare. The heatdeath of the universe and geometry of black holes eventually segmenting space, is itself is a game of Go.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#104

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

dragontamer wrote: post #35

While I can understand Lee Se-dol's frustration, I think there are better lessons to learn from Kasparov's acceptance after the Deep Blue vs Kasparov matches. Cyborg chess is the future of chess. Period. Chess players use computers to train themselves and explore openings in human-only settings, while programmers / cyborgs play correspondence chess. Go is not finished as a game. A new tool, MCTS + Neural nets, has be…

Garry Kasparov might be a bad example, since his immediate reaction to losing to DeepBlue was to accuse the IBM programmers standing on stage next to him of cheating (through human intervention in DeepBlue's moves).

But generally, humans have accepted computer supremacy in chess pretty well. Everyone realizes that a better chess-playing entity exists out there (in everyone's pocket, in fact). That doesn't make the competition between human players less exciting. It's still a match to prove that you're better than the person sitting across the board from you, and it's still incredibly impressive to see how deeply and accurately the top players can calculate, or how much knowledge they have of the game.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#105

Post by karmakaze »

Barrin92 wrote: post #60

I think this is a strange reason to retire and as the article points out it might also simply be due to the legal conflict he is currently in with the KBA. Chess engines have been defeating humans for 20+ years (and are overwhelmingly stronger for a long time), but that hasn't diminished the interest in competitive chess, because the human element of competition and struggle and deep fundamental appreciation for the…

By AlphaGo/AlphaZero finding more effective/balanced moves than humans it's redefining beauty whether it appreciates it or not.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#106

Post by forinti »

SchoolboyBlue wrote: post #21
mourner wrote: post #6

> Even if I become the number one, there is an entity that cannot be defeated Hard for me to empathize with this argument for his retirement. If we can't outrun a car, does that make running competitions pointless? The existence of AlphaGo doesn't diminish the triumph of being a number one human player in any way.

I would counter with the fact that in physical endeavors it's apparent to us that we are not #1 - our household cats are more agile than us. It's in matters of intellect that humans still believe they are #1. AlphaGO's achievement in another field would have similar effects, e.g.: - An AI that diagnoses sickness better than any doctor - An AI that generates text which humans believe more beautiful than any other poet…

Penguins can outswim even Phelps.

The one physical activity at which humans excel is long-distance running.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#107

Post by hackinthebochs »

rosybox wrote: post #63
hackinthebochs wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because in the end it's just a bunch of code running statistical computations At a low enough level, our brain seems to be just a bunch of neurons firing impulses at various rates that can be described as statistical computations. Why be so sure that the right neural network wouldn't understand what it is to be human and mortal, understand suffering, have emotive value, etc?

Because you have to be human and mortal to understand it to credibly contribute and share the story of what that means to be. You can't superficially understand someone's situation and then take ownership of it. You can get a glimpse and really try and empathize, but you can't become the bearer of that experience, just a consumer.

>Because you have to be human and mortal to understand it to credibly contribute and share the story of what that means to be.

Aside from directors, authors, artists, etc, who have demonstrated this to be false, an AI could conceivably synthesize the experiences of every author that wrote on what it means to be human or experience mortality and create a story that captures the essence of the experience better than any one person ever could. Having the first person experience doesn't induce a superior ability to communicate features of the experience.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#108

Post by karmakaze »

nullc wrote: post #92
C14L wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe in chess, instead of measuring time, they should measure kJ spent.

Stockfish on efficient hardware should handily beat humans even if capped to comparable runtime energy usage. I don't know if the same is true for alphago.

Perhaps also true, most of the energy was spent during training.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#109

Post by clmul »

smattiso wrote: post #55

Are we losing something as humans by automating so much? I mean I'm all for technical progress but at some point our computers will have killed so much of what makes us humans. Chess, go, driving, flying, math, written language, music... when does it stop? The standard answer is that we will automate all the dull parts of living and allow everybody to work in some sort of higher order capacity. That sounds great and…

I think the answer is quite simple, computers don't "kill" anything by themselves, for any new technological invention like AI you have a choice about whether you like it or not. What I'm saying with that is, that given the negative sentiment so many people have towards AI, I find it very unlikely that most of us will suddenly stop doing things just because some AI can do it better (look at chess).

If AI's make music as well, why would I care? I still listen to the music composed by Bach and other ancient composers, more than 300 years after they lived, and their music is still being performed today.

I think the availability of AI's will only make a difference where their effects on humanity are beneficial (that is, tasks we don't like doing, for the most part).

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#110

Post by gooseus »

What about finding "Divine Moves"?

While an AI Go player may always be able to defeat a human player in points, it still can't recognize or explain a truly beautiful move or strategy, even if it is the one that is carrying them out.

When it comes to competitive endeavors I've never been as interested the best individuals, except insofar as they are more likely to create the best moments of play - especially moments that reveal profound truths about the nature of the game itself.

What comes to mind thinking of this is a quote from Samuel Anders early in BSG:

"... In fact even the games aren't that important to me. What matters to me is the perfect throw, making the perfect catch, the perfect step and block ..."

The nature of Go has changed, but the game still deserves to be played and explored.

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