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Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing?

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing?

#101

Post by magduf »

notrealpersonq wrote: post #17

Let them release my man Carlos Ghosn first.

This is a fair point. Carlos seemed like he did some really questionable things as head of Nissan, but it all seemed to be things that should have only been pursued in a civil case, not criminal. Instead, it seems like Nissan has used Japan's criminal justice system to punish him, and in quite a harsh way too. The guy is most likely guilty of some things, but the punishment he's experienced has been really out of proportion, and that's not going to be attractive to others who might look at Japan as a place to start a business or get involved in corporate politics.

Re: Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing?

#102

Post by debatem1 »

magduf wrote: post #93
debatem1 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, let's imagine for a moment that it's reasonable to treat everyone who doesn't speak your language as the vanguard of a situation such as you describe. Is Lisbon a dystopia we should fear becoming? Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US. Shouldn't that be reason to think "maybe the thing I fear…

>Is Lisbon a dystopia we should fear becoming? For Portuguese people, perhaps it is. Who really wants to feel like a foreigner in their own country (esp. when that country is as small as Portugal)? I know I'd be really irritated if I tried going to local restaurants around me and all the servers there only spoke Spanish. How would you feel about that? >Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-spea…

The first part seems circular to me: you feel like we should fear becoming Lisbon because if you were in their shoes you would fear this outcome. Well, sure. But at a glance Lisbon seems to be doing pretty well for itself-- certainly better than lots of places in the US. Besides your sense that such cultural changes are bad, what makes them bad? Why, objectively, should they be feared?

And the second part feels is framed as disagreeing with my point, but actually seems to support it: we've dealt with this issue before, the fear was the same, and the feared thing didn't happen. Shouldn't that mean we should dial down the fear this time around?

Re: Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing?

#103

Post by beat »

claudeganon wrote: post #74
Mikeb85 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Japan a cautionary tale? They're one of the most (the most?) developed countries on earth, enjoy one of the highest standards of living and economically punch well above their weight (based on population and access to resources). I don't see where the problem is... The vast majority of countries, even many western countries only wish they had Japan's 'problems'.

Subtract their position as the forward operating base for the US military in Asia and try telling this story again. While Japanese economic progress postwar was astonishing, it was entirely premised on them having favored status in the region. Few people know, for example, that the US forced Korea to purchase massive amounts of goods from Japan to rebuild its economy, essentially reinstating their former colonial rel…

I think it's rather an oversimplification to say that five years of reconstruction of a totally shattered Japan caused the Korean War. Or to take any lessons from the immediate postwar period and use them to explain the state of Japan 75 years later.

Re: Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing?

#104

Post by elgenie »

xyzzyz wrote: post #39
bluedino wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the US has been pretty open to immigration for the last 250 years, while Japan is 98% Japanese.

US has been pretty open to immigration at some points, and relatively closed at others. For the most of last 250 years, it has been mostly closed to non-white immigration, for example. With the exception of black Americans, the current racial and ethnic diversity in the US is a rather recent phenomenon.

The US had no laws restricting immigration, period, until 1882. The national origin quota system didn't exist at all until the 1920s.

Ethnic diversity has been part of the fabric of the US since before it was a country. Per census figures, the percentage of the population that wasn't born in the US was higher in 1910 that in it today.

And, of course, the very concept of "immigrant from Europe or descended from them => white" is a lot more recent than 250 years ago. The Irish weren't considered "white" when they arrived en masse after 1820. Italians, Greeks, and various Slavs also weren't considered "white" when they arrived in the early 20th century. Suspicion of divided loyalties for a Catholic president was a big issue in the 1960 elections (JFK vs Nixon).

Re: Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing?

#105

Post by claudeganon »

magduf wrote: post #88
claudeganon wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Countries exist that have dozens of languages and tribes. They usually have endless social problems, unrest, civil wars and often break up. Oh yeah, the history of the Swiss in the context of Europe is just non-stop insanity and violence. If only they could aspire to be more monocultural and peaceful, like their neighbors, the Germans...

Switzerland is really the only example I can think of that's an exception to the OP's claim. Do you have any others at all?

The problem with OP’s claim is that it lacks any philosophical or historical rigor. Nation states, in their framing, people relating to themselves in terms of national identity, is a modern construction. And even within this context, you have widely different forms and articulations.

What is clear from the history of the 20th century is that appeals to nationalism and uniformity of culture, broadly constructed, drive more violence and conflict than they prevent. Organizing around their ideology led to two world wars, bloodshed and destruction at a previously unforeseen scale.

Arguably, the postwar peace was only restored by a return to an older form of sovereignty: that as semi-autonomous subjects of a multicultural empire (in this case that of the US and USSR). These have long standing historical precedents for their durability (e.g. the Roman and Ottoman empires).

Re: Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing?

#106

Post by Mikeb85 »

debatem1 wrote: post #98
Mikeb85 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is one thing. Culture overall matters. There are a bunch of things which lead to homogeneity. Religion for example. Look at all the troubles Ireland has faced. Culture is language + religion + food + social norms + ideology and probably other things. Not everything needs to be the same, but if too many are in conflict, social problems arise.

Ok. So, are you angry when someone with a different religion moves into you town? Or different food? Or different ideology? I feel like the more this is being explained to me the more unsavory it seems.

Me personally? No.

But evidence of this is all around the world. Hindu mobs attacks butchers who sell beef in India, there's tons of contention over the rise of halal butcher shops and Muslim demands for halal options in the west, or even vegans that protest butcher shops for a non-religious example.

For religion itself, tons of wars have been started over it, that's easy.

As for ideology, look at the US and how fractured it is because of politics today. Or the historic communist revolutions. Or political violence in South and Central America. Both left-wing and right-wing violence against the other side are a thing.

People shouldn't care about these things, but they do, it's a thing.

Re: Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing?

#107

Post by mytailorisrich »

fzeroracer wrote: post #91
mytailorisrich wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism is a not a "structural thing", and neither is it about whites or non-whites. Everywhere you go on Earth you will find racist people, whatever 'race' they are some will be racist against other 'races'. Specifically regarding your point: there are people who are black and racist in the US or any other country.

Racism absolutely is a structural thing. This can include things such as redlining in the US or more on topic, Japanese banks refusing to work with foreigners and the treatment of the Ainu in Japan. There's a very important distinction to make between those that write the laws and those that don't.

These are examples of the consequences of racism.

But racism does not start there.

Re: Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing?

#108

Post by simias »

debatem1 wrote: post #79
simias wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably not what's going to happen though, instead that person is going to work preferentially with people who speak their language because even if hiring a translator to work full-time was an option (and it generally wouldn't be because hiring a good translator full time would be ridiculously expensive for most companies) it would be a major pain in the ass to have to translate everything all the time. A few y…

I mean, let's imagine for a moment that it's reasonable to treat everyone who doesn't speak your language as the vanguard of a situation such as you describe. Is Lisbon a dystopia we should fear becoming? Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US. Shouldn't that be reason to think "maybe the thing I fear…

No, Lisbon is a lovely city (as long as you can afford it, nowadays most Portuguese folks can't). I was merely pointing out the type of social tensions that can arise because of these politics.

>Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US.

I want to start by saying that I'm very much an "open-border" kind of person so I don't really have a huge problem with immigration and cultural "melting pots" but as far as I know there are significant tensions in some southern American states when it comes to immigration from hispanophone countries. According to Wikipedia there are 50 million Spanish speakers in the USA and only about half of them declare speaking English "very well". There also appear to be large regions near the border when Spanish is a majority language. Again, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, but it's certainly significant.

Beyond that America has a huge advantage in that game: English is the de-facto international language nowadays. When the more educated Syrian refugees are interviewed on the German or French TV they generally speak... English, not French or German. I've never set foot in the USA, I must have spent a grand total of one month in the UK and yet like many Europeans I speak English fluently. Japanese and Portuguese don't quite have that aura...

Re: Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing?

#109

Post by debatem1 »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #106
debatem1 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. So, are you angry when someone with a different religion moves into you town? Or different food? Or different ideology? I feel like the more this is being explained to me the more unsavory it seems.

Me personally? No. But evidence of this is all around the world. Hindu mobs attacks butchers who sell beef in India, there's tons of contention over the rise of halal butcher shops and Muslim demands for halal options in the west, or even vegans that protest butcher shops for a non-religious example. For religion itself, tons of wars have been started over it, that's easy. As for ideology, look at the US and how frac…

So, you do have a problem with people speaking other languages, but don't have a problem with people having different religions, despite both causing the same issue you're worried about?

Not getting it. Starting to lean towards the "fig leaf" theory.

Re: Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing?

#110

Post by yorwba »

toasterlovin wrote: post #71
raverbashing wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not so shut-off to immigration as it is commonly imagined. Also we might argue that the Chinese "self-migrate" with a huge amount of students that go for studies outside China but return later.

Internal migration is not the same thing as immigration.

It totally is. Someone migrating, say, from Changsha to Guangzhou is going to face a significant language barrier interacting with locals. Yes, they probably both speak passable Mandarin, but possibly with quite different accents affected by Xiang and Cantonese, respectively. An influx of easily recognizable outsiders is going to fuel resentment wherever they compete with locals for scarce resources like jobs and living space. The Chinese household registration system 户口 hùkǒu exists in part to keep that internal migration under control.
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