The public libraries in Ireland decided to eliminate fines early this year and it seems to have had the opposite effect. In some cases, people don’t seem to return books at all. I’d placed a hold on a book, a couple of months ago and it looks like the people who’d borrowed the only two copies of the book in the system haven’t returned it in over 8 months now. I‘d initially thought that eliminating fines was a great i…
In Seattle, the late fees have been eliminated. But they'll still charge you replacement cost for a lost/ruined book.
Being poor prevents you from returning books in time.
Being rich enables you to return books as late as you want because the fine means little to you, and certainly not whether you can eat or pay the rent.
You also have the option of, you know, returning the book in time so you aren't fined at all.
I think what's being missed in the discussion on HN is the reason CPL eliminated fines. It's not about the money, nor is it about getting the books back. It's to improve access to the library system. CPL did a study of who held the cards with suspended privileges because of late fees, and found out that the vast majority were people in poor neighborhoods, and of those the vast majority were children. Now with the new…
Being poor prevents you from returning books in time.
Poor people are sometimes forgetful as well. I forgot to return library books many times as an ADHD kid but the small fine was irrelevant to my blue-collar, "you need to go to university someday" parents.
Please have some empathy for poor children and children with unengaged parents and stop supporting punishing them for their failings by removing access to one of the things that might get them out of their position.
I think what's being missed in the discussion on HN is the reason CPL eliminated fines. It's not about the money, nor is it about getting the books back. It's to improve access to the library system. CPL did a study of who held the cards with suspended privileges because of late fees, and found out that the vast majority were people in poor neighborhoods, and of those the vast majority were children. Now with the new…
So, I'm curious. Did they require that the books be returned in order to open up borrowing again? Like, just, "please bring the books back, we'll disappear the fees and just take 'em back and all is forgiven"? Or did they just... reactivate the accounts and hope that history won't repeat? (Genuinely curious -- the articles I've read on the subject, like this one, are all excited about more library everything, but qui…
Your proposal seems reasonable and a fair way to prevent a few bad actor patrons from stealing the whole library and then claiming no repercussions.
It's weird that in an era of zero-cost digital availability of practically everything mankind has ever produced we still care about the details of distributing printed-out copies of books. Digital distribution has zero marginal cost and practically everyone has a device capable of reading the entire archive of humanity. Why do we still care about books per se?
Because of tradition and nostalgia. Also i find the experience slightly better. But you are right: we don't need libraries anymore. We might need bookstores for nostalgic rich people who can still afford the space for a personal library.
I think what's being missed in the discussion on HN is the reason CPL eliminated fines. It's not about the money, nor is it about getting the books back. It's to improve access to the library system. CPL did a study of who held the cards with suspended privileges because of late fees, and found out that the vast majority were people in poor neighborhoods, and of those the vast majority were children. Now with the new…
Oh yeah, that once was a big problem for me when I was something like 9 years old. I was using library a lot and one day I lost the book. And there were fines for that and for late return as well. I didn't tell my parents because we didn't have a lot of money, so that would be a problem. I saved my lunch money etc for two months and then went to the library to solve the problem. They were pretty nice about it and let me to replace the book with cheap another one, which I bought right outside the library, so even didn't spend all the money I saved. Seems funny now, but it was a major source of anxiety for me back then :)
So, I'm curious. Did they require that the books be returned in order to open up borrowing again? Like, just, "please bring the books back, we'll disappear the fees and just take 'em back and all is forgiven"? Or did they just... reactivate the accounts and hope that history won't repeat? (Genuinely curious -- the articles I've read on the subject, like this one, are all excited about more library everything, but qui…
Your proposal seems reasonable and a fair way to prevent a few bad actor patrons from stealing the whole library and then claiming no repercussions.
I’m sure another way would be to start looking into accounts that repeatedly check out books and fail to return them.
it doesn't have to be funded by the state. you can just "buy" a book off the library. in fact, you could buy the book in a book shop, and the library becomes a swapping center. as long as you bring back books in good condition, and they are in the library catalogue. (the library may not want to take multiple copies of books that are unpopular) of course paying for books up front does affect low income families and us…
Public bookshelf is something that starts to pop up here and there. They are sometimes outdoors, accessible at any time or at the entrance of supermarkets. You take a book that looks interesting, read it and return later. Or just swap with some other book you own. Sometimes there are someone that takes care of the shelf, swapping content from other shelves further away. I often find interesting stuff in our local one…
I see lot of them in people’s front yards, interestingly enough.
I'm having a bit of trouble determining if that was a reply to my comment. My only point was that if things are optional to pay for, lots of people will take the thing, and not pay. That's why the grocery store hires cashiers, rather than being on the honor system.
That's not why cashiers are there. The cashier is there for when you decide to pay for your goods. If you try and walk out with them, the cashier will not stop you. For legal reasons, even the security probably won't touch you. The reason most people who don't steal isn't the punishment, it's because they don't want to steal. Likewise, removing the fine doesn't make a late book not late. People do not have some inher…
> If you try and walk out with them, the cashier will not stop you. For legal reasons, even the security probably won't touch you.
But you can bet that they’ll be sending the video recording with you waltzing out to the local police station…
Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was wor…
Yeah, it's really quite interesting in general the internally inconsistent view of human nature people will hold in to satisfy some higher order bias they have about how the world does or should work.