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Uber Sinks to New Record Low as IPO Share Lockup Expires

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Re: Uber Sinks to New Record Low as IPO Share Lockup Expires

#101
post #15

Is anyone really surprised? Years before the IPO we knew they were not profitable in the least. We knew VC cash was subsidizing rides. We knew that their future was purely dependent on a self-driving car fleet where they could ditch drivers (and their pay) completely. This on top of a horrible culture with pretty lousy ethics and morality. This is how this was supposed to play out and everyone here (on HN) knew that.…

This reads like the usual Uber criticism and doesn't touch on the lockup. The market knew the lockup was ending, so it should have been priced in. Dropping when the lockup ends should mean that markets underestimated how many insiders wanted to cash out, and employee sentiment is worse than market sentiment.

> Dropping when the lockup ends should mean that markets underestimated how many insiders wanted to cash out, and employee sentiment is worse than market sentiment.

Uber's volume is 700% compared to last week. With volume-swings like that, there really isn't much you can do.

Re: Uber Sinks to New Record Low as IPO Share Lockup Expires

#102
post #15

Is anyone really surprised? Years before the IPO we knew they were not profitable in the least. We knew VC cash was subsidizing rides. We knew that their future was purely dependent on a self-driving car fleet where they could ditch drivers (and their pay) completely. This on top of a horrible culture with pretty lousy ethics and morality. This is how this was supposed to play out and everyone here (on HN) knew that.…

This reads like the usual Uber criticism and doesn't touch on the lockup. The market knew the lockup was ending, so it should have been priced in. Dropping when the lockup ends should mean that markets underestimated how many insiders wanted to cash out, and employee sentiment is worse than market sentiment.

While yours is an economics textbook answer, any trader will tell you, "it doesn't matter until it matters."

Re: Uber Sinks to New Record Low as IPO Share Lockup Expires

#104
post #23
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's their cash on hand position, I believe I saw that there's 13B, after adding 8B in the IPO, that seems like a ton of cash on hand for a business that isn't showing any signs of turning of profit. Could they not just without any further cash infusion continue to lose similar amounts for the next three years and be cash solvent. Does that then not give a big incentive to figure out how to become profitable in the…

The core business is very profitable. Loss-making is happening in their less mature product categories and expansion efforts.

Take a look at their most recent 10-Q[1] where you'll notice their claim of profitability relies on the completely made up (and non-GAAP) metric of "Rides Adjusted EBITDA".

From page 36 of the filing ("Segment adjusted EBITDA" collectively references their adjusted EBITDA metrics for rides, eats, and freight):

> Segment adjusted EBITDA is defined as revenue less the following expenses: cost of revenue, operations and support, sales and marketing, and general and administrative and research and development expenses associated with the Company’s segments. Segment adjusted EBITDA also excludes any non-cash items or items that management does not believe are reflective of the Company’s ongoing core operations (as shown in the table below).

The referenced table includes $1.8 billion in Corporate Governance. That one line item completely wipes out their "Rides Adjusted EBITDA" profitability.

They're only profitable as long as they don't have any expenses. And that isn't really how "profit" works.

[1] http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1543151/0001543151190...

Re: Uber Sinks to New Record Low as IPO Share Lockup Expires

#105
I think Lyft and Uber hurt public transit. There has gotta be a better way to make American cities more livable and accessible without adding additional car traffic.

Buses, denser house, better urban planning, metro rail and subway additions are the way we need to go like Asia and Europe. Uber and Lyft are not doing well in Europe and Asia because leaders realize they make traffic worse and are trying to focus on zoning and transit instead.

Re: Uber Sinks to New Record Low as IPO Share Lockup Expires

#106
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we assume the meant SF instead of SV, does that negate his point somehow?

Yes, I meant SF. I do find it amusing that I was called out on this, though, since in the past I've been called out for not including SF as part of SV.

[deleted]

Re: Uber Sinks to New Record Low as IPO Share Lockup Expires

#107
post #35
post #15

Is anyone really surprised? Years before the IPO we knew they were not profitable in the least. We knew VC cash was subsidizing rides. We knew that their future was purely dependent on a self-driving car fleet where they could ditch drivers (and their pay) completely. This on top of a horrible culture with pretty lousy ethics and morality. This is how this was supposed to play out and everyone here (on HN) knew that.…

Sure, but the same could be said of Tesla. Horrible employer, constant exec churn, unbelievable cash burn, what appears to be structural losses.... But Tesla still has a 56B mcap today. Uber is 46B. These VC/equity issue cash furnaces can go on longer than most can fathom if a subset of investors believe in the long term vision.

I think part of the issue is market timing. If we went back to June, Tesla is sitting at a $33B market cap after a huge slide. Uber started sliding in August. If we were just looking at market cap, Uber's had been decently stable for 3 months post-IPO and is now sliding. Tesla's would have been at its low point in June. You could have said then, "same could be said... but Uber is sitting at a $71B market cap while Tesla has slid down to $33B".

I do think Tesla is overvalued, but presents less risk than Uber. Ultimately, Tesla is looking to be a car company. $56B is a bit expensive for a car company, but there are examples. GM is $54B, Ford is $35B, Fiat Chrysler is $25B, Volkswagen is $100B, Toyota is $230B, Honda is $50B, Nissan is $27B, and Mazda is $6B. I think Tesla is overpriced because I think it's highly unlikely that they're the next Toyota. In 10 years, I think they might be the next Mazda or GM or Nissan or Honda - representing no gain to a significant loss over the next decade. Even if they become the next Volkswagen in 10 years, that would represent a less than 10% annualized return for something that's unlikely to happen. Even if one thinks Tesla is making a great product, the likelihood of becoming the next VW is very slim. Heck, Mazda makes some great cars and sells nearly 2 million, but they're only a $6B company.

But fundamentally, building cars and selling them for the amount of money people buy cars at is a reasonable proposition. Tesla's quarterly reports show that they can make them profitably and that the solar business is weighing on their financials. I can see Tesla being a profitable, sustainable company. They've proven out the economics of their batteries, drive-trains, manufacturing, etc. enough for me to believe there isn't an impediment to them continuing to exist indefinitely. I don't think they're going to justify their high valuation, but I can certainly see them becoming a Mazda, Nissan, or Honda - well respected, profitable, etc.

I mean, Tesla had $143M in GAAP net income in Q3.

However, I think there are big questions on whether Uber can stick around indefinitely. As states turn against the gig economy, does that wreck their business model? As self-driving seems many more years away, do they have the runway to keep going? Even with self-driving, are they the ones that will capture that market or will a company without the losses from a driver-oriented business take over that space? Will customers give a company like Uber margin or will they constantly be searching for the cheapest option?

I think the auto industry in general will face challenges over the next couple decades (another reason I'm less bullish on Tesla), but Tesla (at least its auto business) is fundamentally traditional. You give them tens of thousands of dollars, they give you a car. It might be an electric one with interesting new toys, but it's a traditional transaction and one that seems to provide good margin as the ramp-up costs start to wind down (launching an auto company takes a lot of time and money). Tesla is trying to convince people that they want to buy a Tesla rather than a Nissan. Uber is trying to convince people that they want to buy a lot more taxi rides and the only way to do that is by making them cheaper. Can they make that happen? Even if they make that happen, is there a barrier to someone else coming in and competing?

Re: Uber Sinks to New Record Low as IPO Share Lockup Expires

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads like the usual Uber criticism and doesn't touch on the lockup. The market knew the lockup was ending, so it should have been priced in. Dropping when the lockup ends should mean that markets underestimated how many insiders wanted to cash out, and employee sentiment is worse than market sentiment.

> Dropping when the lockup ends should mean that markets underestimated how many insiders wanted to cash out, and employee sentiment is worse than market sentiment. Uber's volume is 700% compared to last week. With volume-swings like that, there really isn't much you can do.

[deleted]

Re: Uber Sinks to New Record Low as IPO Share Lockup Expires

#109

So I think people may be misinterpreting this drop: lock up expired today, so the sales today -- throughout the day -- are a result of the lock up expiry. This pre-market drop is the result of people anticipating the drop and selling before the market opens. It is also, partly, driven by the disappointing earnings from 3 days ago, and indeed the drops over the last few days have been about as large. For what its wort…

I'm surprised it isn't much lower. Maybe people holding the stock are too "pot-committed" to sell at this point?

Price targets from almost every analyst after Q3 earnings is $>40. If you believe that, you'd be making a mistake selling.

Re: Uber Sinks to New Record Low as IPO Share Lockup Expires

#110
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core business is very profitable. Loss-making is happening in their less mature product categories and expansion efforts.

> The core business is very profitable. Loss-making is happening in their less mature product categories and expansion efforts. Not really. It is true that in their non GAAP accounting they broker out revenue by segment and showed that "Rides" made a profit of $631M but they also include categories for eats, freight and other bets that lost money. But the kicker is that they introduced a category called "Corporate G&…

So positive gross margin vs. negative net margin.
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