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Voyager 2’s Discoveries from Interstellar Space

nytimes.com

101–109 of 109 posts

Re: Voyager 2’s Discoveries from Interstellar Space

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fairly common trope in SciFi settings which have Generation Ships. Some time after the ship gets launched (centuries, even), FTL gets developed. Then they either arrive and find a civilization at their destination, or they are considered to be off-limits and not to be messed with, depending on the setting. That assumes such improvements are even possible. At least for non-magical propulsion, we don't really…

As in most cases, problems left for the reader are usually the hard ones! The rocket equation tells us that if one somehow managed to build a spacecraft containing an infinite power source that weighed a single kilogram, and incorporated the most efficient engine designs known to us (electrostatic ion thrusters), it would still need to be fueled with a reaction mass of xenon equivalent to approximately two billion ti…

The crucial point is that to get to (low) relativistic speeds, you also need a relativistic exhaust velocity or the reaction mass just becomes untenable. Current ion thrusters are not up to the job.

For example, if you had a vehicle weighing 10t empty (but including energy), and a thruster capable of accelerating ions to 1% the speed of light, you'll only need 17t of reaction mass to achieve a speed delta of 1% the speed of light.

This ratio holds up as you scale exhaust velocity and delta V, so the exact same reaction mass would be needed for a 10% light speed delta V using a thruster shooting ions at 10% c. As a rule of thumb, you always need a reaction mass about 170% of the vehicle's dry mass when your thruster exactly matches your target velocity.

Now, to illustrate how critical exhaust velocity is, imagine you make thrusters with exhaust velocities 10x that of the target delta V. In those cases, you'll only need a reaction mass of roughly 10%. However, if your exhaust velocity is 0.1x the target delta V, you'll need a 2200000% reaction mass!

Re: Voyager 2’s Discoveries from Interstellar Space

#102
post #38

I'm amazed and still can't get my head around how today we can receive images and valuable data from a device which is currently lightdays away from us and was built with 60's technology & know-how and is operating well beyond it's expected lifetime. I raise my glass to the engineers who worked on this. Makes my daily programming tasks feel stupid in comparison. Edit: corrected, thanks for the numbers

I know a person who worked on voyager. He is a very smart person who has contributed to a wide range of technologies over a long period of time. I have talked to him and the reality is that by the time that project was being done, the people who ran it had a lot of experience, and they applied the hell out of it to the project. I've spent a lot of time since then looking into how to build reliable systems that operat…

The biggest factor working to their advantage was that the tech back then was much simpler and more robust. To get todays tech to work for a decade without interruption would be a very tall order. Layer upon layer of abstraction has made it impossible to know for sure that there are no edge cases that will only trigger once every 3 years or so.

Re: Voyager 2’s Discoveries from Interstellar Space

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they powered via PV? IIRC one of them (satellite/probes) had some nuclear fuel.

> Are they powered via PV Consider that light emitted from the Sun will decay with the square of the distance – as it is irradiated in all directions. To Voyager, the Sun looks like an ordinary star – although one much brighter than the others. Not much energy can be harvested there. Until recently, photovoltaics were useless as far away as Jupiter. Given the tech advancements, we can now use them there (and have). F…

https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/17419/most-distant...

Re: Voyager 2’s Discoveries from Interstellar Space

#104
post #13
post #12

I am always baffled by the conundrum of the futility of launching a spacecraft to go far away by our own ability to invent faster engines. Say it takes 300 years to get to Alpha Centauri. If you launch it you have 150 years to invent a spacecraft that goes twice the speed of the first one. Very likely. If you launch that one it will overtake the other one. Now you have 75 years to find an even faster engine. Launch i…

"Why should I buy a computer today, when a computer in 10 years can do a ton more for less money?"

More like "why start walking now when I can wait for a bus." In the case of a trip to the corner store, like, Saturn, get walking. If you're crossing the city, like, Alpha Centauri, wait for the faster transport

Re: Voyager 2’s Discoveries from Interstellar Space

#105
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a person who worked on voyager. He is a very smart person who has contributed to a wide range of technologies over a long period of time. I have talked to him and the reality is that by the time that project was being done, the people who ran it had a lot of experience, and they applied the hell out of it to the project. I've spent a lot of time since then looking into how to build reliable systems that operat…

The biggest factor working to their advantage was that the tech back then was much simpler and more robust. To get todays tech to work for a decade without interruption would be a very tall order. Layer upon layer of abstraction has made it impossible to know for sure that there are no edge cases that will only trigger once every 3 years or so.

I sort-of agree, although actually there is a lot of older stuff still made on fabs with huge (transistor) feature sizes and limited (software) feature sets that could be used to build extremely reliable long-term systems.

Re: Voyager 2’s Discoveries from Interstellar Space

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both Voyager 1 and 2 use RTG's (Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators)[1] for power. Every year the RTG puts out less and less power, so instruments are gradually powered down to preserve the functionality of the critical ones for as long as possible. According to JPL[2] at least one scientific instrument will continue functioning until about 2025, and the crafts will remain in range of the Deep Space Network until…

Thanks for mentioning Deep Space Network . I didn't know this is a thing and is more than 50 years old. https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/about/

If you ever have the chance to check out JPL during one of their open houses, I highly recommend it. They have an exhibit with replica models of various satellites throughout history, and in the entry way there are screens showing data about what is currently being pulled in from the DSN. When I was there, it was pulling down data from New Horizons (at some absurdly low bit rate)!

Re: Voyager 2’s Discoveries from Interstellar Space

#107
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a person who worked on voyager. He is a very smart person who has contributed to a wide range of technologies over a long period of time. I have talked to him and the reality is that by the time that project was being done, the people who ran it had a lot of experience, and they applied the hell out of it to the project. I've spent a lot of time since then looking into how to build reliable systems that operat…

The biggest factor working to their advantage was that the tech back then was much simpler and more robust. To get todays tech to work for a decade without interruption would be a very tall order. Layer upon layer of abstraction has made it impossible to know for sure that there are no edge cases that will only trigger once every 3 years or so.

The physical hardware for the computers of 70's probes had more parts and complexity. Voyager used magnetic tape recorders, for example. Newer tech has allowed for simpler computer hardware, but does shift problems into the realm of software and file system management.

Both Spirit (Mars) and New Horizons (Pluto) had down days as issues with file system management puzzled the IT staff.

The New Horizons case was a crazy mad-scramble, as the probe was scheduled to pass by Pluto in a few days whether the probe was working or not. There was no re-do. Dozens of choice careers were in the balance.

Probe chips are still not very powerful by today's standards because they are designed to work in the harsh conditions of space. Thus, they are more comparable to a 1980's PC, and may mostly stay that way, being smaller components don't handle radiation well.

I read somewhere it's estimated that even surface-reaching cosmic radiation fouls up the typical desktop PC roughly once a year. Most just grumble at Microsoft and reboot.

Re: Voyager 2’s Discoveries from Interstellar Space

#108

I'm amazed and still can't get my head around how today we can receive images and valuable data from a device which is currently lightdays away from us and was built with 60's technology & know-how and is operating well beyond it's expected lifetime. I raise my glass to the engineers who worked on this. Makes my daily programming tasks feel stupid in comparison. Edit: corrected, thanks for the numbers

Yes, the notion of engineers knowing what they are doing and actually creating a reliable system seems to be largely alien to the HN crowd.

Re: Voyager 2’s Discoveries from Interstellar Space

#109
post #38

I'm amazed and still can't get my head around how today we can receive images and valuable data from a device which is currently lightdays away from us and was built with 60's technology & know-how and is operating well beyond it's expected lifetime. I raise my glass to the engineers who worked on this. Makes my daily programming tasks feel stupid in comparison. Edit: corrected, thanks for the numbers

I know a person who worked on voyager. He is a very smart person who has contributed to a wide range of technologies over a long period of time. I have talked to him and the reality is that by the time that project was being done, the people who ran it had a lot of experience, and they applied the hell out of it to the project. I've spent a lot of time since then looking into how to build reliable systems that operat…

> ...and the dedication to keep things going long after most people got bored of them.

... has become a virtual impossibility in the age of short-lived consumerism and fad-driven development.

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