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The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

theguardian.com

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Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#101

Post by kube-system »

kube-system wrote: post #20
Retric wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the actual list is not purely based on risk of serious injuries. It’s a list to cover the scope of OSHA issues which means it’s less arbitrary than you might think. Anyway, it has some interesting info. “903 Latinx workers died on the job in 2017 representing a 15 percent increase since 2012, and 17 percent of all U.S. fatalities from workplace trauma.”

I think that supports the above point. The dozen companies on the list only account for a few of that 903. As the linked document mentions, there are very few OSHA inspectors. You’re very unlikely to have any sort of real OSHA enforcement at a small business in the US. At a large employer, they often at least recognize and attempt to follow safety regulations. At a small business it is not at all uncommon for managem…

Replying to myself just to add -- I'm not saying that large companies aren't significant offenders. They employ a lot of people and certainly have the means to implement compliance mechanisms, so they should do better.

I'm simply pointing out that smaller businesses get away with much more (many operating without any compliance mechanisms whatsoever), and are able to continue to do so with almost zero scrutiny.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#102

Post by krapp »

midgetjones wrote: post #79
krapp wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only speak in the case of one warehouse, but yes - I've seen a lot of middle-aged people working there.

70-90 is middle-aged now?

I was estimating ages of 50 and older based on appearance, I didn't actually take a poll or anything.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#103

Post by krapp »

zepto wrote: post #89
krapp wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon will hire anyone who can pass a drug test and physically handle the work for at least a day.

...which people in hospital clearly cannot.

Yes, it goes without saying that people who are not physically able to either interview for, or be present at the location of the job, will not be able to perform the job.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#104

Post by gridlockd »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #80
gridlockd wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Six deaths in as many months is something else. It says "Six worker deaths in seven months; 13 deaths since 2013." It doesn't go into any detail as to whether these workers actually died on the job . Six out of ~125,000 warehouse workers in one year would be double the average[1] (over all professions), but 13 out of ~100,000 over six years would be quite low. > A week before Billy Foister died of a heart attack, h…

> It says "Six worker deaths in seven months; 13 deaths since 2013." It doesn't go into any detail as to whether these workers actually died on the job. One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home. But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or op…

> One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home.

I disagree. With these kinds of sources, you can't reasonably assume this.

> But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or operations since November 2018." Six on-the-job deaths in six months, November to April. Not all of them were in warehouses, but all of them were preventable.

You're right, I should have paid more attention, because those deaths aren't Amazon employees at all and none of them are warehouse workers:

- Andrew Lindsayand Israel Espana Argote, contract workers, died when the wall of an Amazon warehouse collapsed during a severe storm in Baltimore in November 2018.

- Brien James Dauntfell to his death during construction of an Amazon warehouse in Oildale, CA in January 2019. Falls from a height are a well-known –and preventable –hazard in the construction industry, with long-established protocols to reduce risks. CalOSHA is investigating the incident.

- Aviators Ricky Blakely,Conrad Jules Askaand Sean Archuletadied in February when an Air Atlas plane, carrying cargo for Amazon, crashed into Trinity Bay, southeast of Texas. Blakely and Aska worked for Air Atlas and were members of the Airline Professional Association (APA), Teamsters Local 224. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is investigating the incident.

None of these incidents hint at negligence on the part of Amazon.

This also explains why over the period of several years, Amazon workplace fatalities were well below average: They counted those properly. Working at Amazon is actually very safe, statistically speaking.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#105

Post by dang »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #34
gridlockd wrote: post #24

> The incident is among the latest in a series of accidents and fatalities that have led to Amazon’s inclusion on the National Council for Occupational Safety and Health’s 2019 Dirty Dozen list of the most dangerous employers in the United States. Completely ridiculous. Look at the list: http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dir... In five out of these twelve, nobody actually died. Those may be shi…

I'll repeat my question I did to another one - are you employed by or paid by Amazon? "nobody died" is not good enough. Whataboutism is not a good counter-argument.

That crosses into personal attack as well as breaking the site guideline against insinuations of astroturfing. It's not cool to do those things here, so please don't.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#106

Post by zepto »

krapp wrote: post #103
zepto wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...which people in hospital clearly cannot.

Yes, it goes without saying that people who are not physically able to either interview for, or be present at the location of the job, will not be able to perform the job.

... and since Vermont doesn’t have these selection criteria for its residents, the comparison makes no sense.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#107

Post by PhasmaFelis »

gridlockd wrote: post #104
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It says "Six worker deaths in seven months; 13 deaths since 2013." It doesn't go into any detail as to whether these workers actually died on the job. One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home. But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or op…

> One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home. I disagree. With these kinds of sources, you can't reasonably assume this. > But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or operations since November 2018." Six on-the-job deaths in six months, Novemb…

> those deaths aren't Amazon employees at all

> None of these incidents hint at negligence on the part of Amazon.

Whether their paycheck is signed by Amazon directly or through a contracting service is irrelevant. Amazon is responsible for the firms it hires to run its operations, and the rules and standards it requires them to meet. If Amazon contractors are chronically negligent, then Amazon is negligent.

Re: The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor

#109

Post by gridlockd »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #107
gridlockd wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home. I disagree. With these kinds of sources, you can't reasonably assume this. > But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or operations since November 2018." Six on-the-job deaths in six months, Novemb…

> those deaths aren't Amazon employees at all > None of these incidents hint at negligence on the part of Amazon. Whether their paycheck is signed by Amazon directly or through a contracting service is irrelevant. Amazon is responsible for the firms it hires to run its operations, and the rules and standards it requires them to meet. If Amazon contractors are chronically negligent, then Amazon is negligent.

> Amazon is responsible for the firms it hires to run its operations, and the rules and standards it requires them to meet.

I don't disagree that Amazon has some responsibility here, but within reason. No evidence has been presented that Amazon has been neglectful. Accidents happen even in the safest of environments, but you also can't expect Amazon (or any other company) hiring a contractor to supervise them 100% of the time. It can't work that way.

> If Amazon contractors are chronically negligent, then Amazon is negligent.

Again, there is no known indicator that Amazon was being negligent in these cases, otherwise that would've been put forth. Whether or not such indicators will turn up during investigation, Amazon is already on that list. That's plain dishonesty.

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