On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta • Hacker News Board

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#101

Post by davvolun » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #74

davvolun wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? English is verifiably not as gendered as Spanish, at the very least. All nouns in Spanish require a gender article (el/la or los/las). In English, you do not have to figure out whether "día" should be prefixed with el or la -- and in the case of "día" despite it ending in "a" which usually implies feminine and la, it's actually masculine and is properly "el día." That doesn't even bring in…

Look more closely at Latin gendering rules, not romance language gendering rules. In Latin, gender comes from the suffix. It's typically carried over in suffixes from Latin: Words ending in "a" are feminine, words ending in "um" are masculine. Or, look through common English names and see how often they follow Latin gender suffixes. Adam / Ada is an example. ("Am" is a male suffix.)

I recall responding to the statement "English is just as gendered as...", but clearly that's not what you wrote. That's my fault.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#102

Post by unforeseen9991 » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

ksec wrote: post #22

[Off Topic] I was very late to the whole StackOverflow Saga, and didn't spend much time reading through all of its causes and comments at the time it happen. And when I did, the thing that struck me most and has been in many other places including HN ( Sometimes ) is the use of English presumes others are Americans, especially in technology sector. This completely ignores people all over the world using English to co…

I didn't assume, but I can tell right away when someone has English as a second language like you do.

I pick up grammatical oddities as I read, and if I had to guess i'd say your first language is of Asian origin, possibly Filipino.

Of course that doesn't mean you aren't American, but I assume you are not vs are in this kind of situation.

It probably depends on how "American" the forum for discussion is vs global, I see HN more American then say, Reddit.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#103

Post by hinkley » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 6:17 PM UTC

urthen wrote: post #12

RankingMember wrote: post #5

I think the blowback is really just about cognitive load. There's only so much you can expend on social mores before the actual subject you're discussing gets eclipsed. Everyone deserves equal respect, but I understand that when I'm not in the majority in a situation that my perspectives/language may be alien to some of those in the majority- I don't hold it against them unless there is explicit hostility. I find mys…

Absolutely "They". They they they they they. English already has a perfectly good gender-neutral pronoun. I explicitly list my pronouns as "He/his or they/their" because I think the neopronouns are ultimately a way to gatekeep inclusivity, which is ironic.

That doesn't fix everything.

My kid's best friend is now a they. After knowing a 'her' for three years, it's been hard to switch. I have a hard enough time some days stringing the right adjectives into sentences without also worrying about pronouns too. It's easier for me to do when typing, but I can't speak for everyone.

Since their first name is a single syllable, I've found myself avoiding pronouns entirely when talking about them. Because accidentally saying 'she' more than once in a while causes stress for everyone. It's a big deal, their father is not okay with this, and we are frequently the safest house for this group of kids to hang out at.

Our kid has always gone by a nickname. When she got older she decided she wanted a change. I was the first one in the house to use her new first name reliably. I'm not sure why I'm the one having trouble with pronouns.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#104

Post by slowmovintarget » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #103

urthen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely "They". They they they they they. English already has a perfectly good gender-neutral pronoun. I explicitly list my pronouns as "He/his or they/their" because I think the neopronouns are ultimately a way to gatekeep inclusivity, which is ironic.

That doesn't fix everything. My kid's best friend is now a they. After knowing a 'her' for three years, it's been hard to switch. I have a hard enough time some days stringing the right adjectives into sentences without also worrying about pronouns too. It's easier for me to do when typing, but I can't speak for everyone. Since their first name is a single syllable, I've found myself avoiding pronouns entirely when t…

A friend of mine transitioned. Using the new name came fairly quickly. Adapting all of my own history with this friend to bubble up a new pronoun reliably is still a work in progress.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#105

Post by ksec » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 11:05 PM UTC

unforeseen9991 wrote: post #102

ksec wrote: post #22

[Off Topic] I was very late to the whole StackOverflow Saga, and didn't spend much time reading through all of its causes and comments at the time it happen. And when I did, the thing that struck me most and has been in many other places including HN ( Sometimes ) is the use of English presumes others are Americans, especially in technology sector. This completely ignores people all over the world using English to co…

I didn't assume, but I can tell right away when someone has English as a second language like you do. I pick up grammatical oddities as I read, and if I had to guess i'd say your first language is of Asian origin, possibly Filipino. Of course that doesn't mean you aren't American, but I assume you are not vs are in this kind of situation. It probably depends on how "American" the forum for discussion is vs global, I…

>I pick up grammatical oddities as I read

Mind sharing? So I can improve on it, it is funny as this is not the first time someone said I am Filipino, which I am not XD.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#106

Post by skissane » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:00 AM UTC

frittig wrote: post #95

One issue that a lot of trans supporters don't realize is that similarly to how trans people could be offended when they are referred to by a gender not of their choice, so to could some speakers be offended if they are forced to refer to a person as a gender not of their (the speaker) choice. This may be easier to understand by using a comparison. When I talk about the Muslim prophet I say Muhammad. However, many Mu…

> Similarly by referring to a person with XX chromosomes as she

It is worth pointing out that there are non-transgender XX males [1]. They are very rare, but it can happen. If the part of the Y chromosome which contains the SRY (testis-determining factor) gene is translocated to the X chromosome, an individual can be an infertile XX male. I don't think anyone would try to argue that such a person is not actually male (assuming they in fact identify as such), in spite of their XX chromosomes, since their external appearance from birth can be completely male. (XX male individuals vary: some appear anatomically completely male, albeit sterile; others show incomplete masculinisation.)

Biological sex cannot be reduced to chromosomes, although chromosomes can be used as a rule of thumb valid 99.99% of the time. In fact, I don't think there is any one single factor to which biological sex can be reduced; both maleness and femaleness are composites of collections of traits which usually occur together, but none of those traits is absolutely necessary to being of that biological sex. People who talk about biological sex as if it was completely determined by chromosomes are ignorant of the whole story.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#107

Post by atonse » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

Kye wrote: post #94

drstewart wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If so, Google/quack/whatever for ze pronoun and see what comes up. No, I don't think I will waste my time Googling every little thing to avoid manufactured outrage.

Do you typically refuse to learn new things because some people who know those things are toxic assholes? I never would have learned anything about computers, writing, or music with a policy like that. You do you. I'll be over here learning new ways to expand on the human experience.

It's not about refusing to learn new things. You're missing the point. It's about having to think about (and having to apologize for it if you don't think about) something that's completely irrelevant to the conversation.

Others have rightly pointed out that there are some StackExchange networks where your pronoun matters. And I'm sure in those, it's worth putting in the effort. But for StackOverflow, MathOverflow, Electronics, these things are absolutely, positively irrelevant to the subject. It neither adds nor takes away a sense of inclusivity because _it's not relevant_. It's a neutral thing.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#108

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

atonse wrote: post #107

Kye wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you typically refuse to learn new things because some people who know those things are toxic assholes? I never would have learned anything about computers, writing, or music with a policy like that. You do you. I'll be over here learning new ways to expand on the human experience.

It's not about refusing to learn new things. You're missing the point. It's about having to think about (and having to apologize for it if you don't think about) something that's completely irrelevant to the conversation. Others have rightly pointed out that there are some StackExchange networks where your pronoun matters. And I'm sure in those, it's worth putting in the effort. But for StackOverflow, MathOverflow, E…

[deleted]

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#109

Post by emiliobumachar » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

Kye wrote: post #73

atonse wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a better example that’s not as obvious: if I am not aware that ze was an accepted pronoun and someone told me to use it, how do I know its real and not them jokingly using “the” with a French accent? Should I report it as someone fooling around?

Is the post otherwise good? If so, Google/quack/whatever for ze pronoun and see what comes up. Search engines are better at surfacing explanations for them these days. In practice, you won't encounter them often, and it should be obvious if they're a troll. Those should be reported and otherwise ignored. You can worry yourself sick with these hypotheticals. You are more dynamic than you give yourself credit for.

Fun fact: googling "apache attack helicopter pronoun" turns up a few things, and it may not be immediately obvious to all good-faith searchers that it's bogus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=apache+attack+helicopter+pro...

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#110

Post by BrandoElFollito » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #103

urthen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely "They". They they they they they. English already has a perfectly good gender-neutral pronoun. I explicitly list my pronouns as "He/his or they/their" because I think the neopronouns are ultimately a way to gatekeep inclusivity, which is ironic.

That doesn't fix everything. My kid's best friend is now a they. After knowing a 'her' for three years, it's been hard to switch. I have a hard enough time some days stringing the right adjectives into sentences without also worrying about pronouns too. It's easier for me to do when typing, but I can't speak for everyone. Since their first name is a single syllable, I've found myself avoiding pronouns entirely when t…

You mean that you say "do they want some chocolate" when directly asking that single person if that single person wants chocolate?

I thought that "they" is too ne used instead of he or she (3rd person) - which I find useful to avoud he/she or (s)he

EDIT: I had an epiphany under the shower, sorry I misunderstood you and you probably meant that you now have to say "ask your friend Jane if they want chocolate"