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The China Cultural Clash

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101–110 of 379 posts

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#101
One thing you learn from spending time studying China is that the Chinese state has an asymmetric advantage in much better understanding the US than the US understands China and being very good at deliberately structuring their systems and policies in a way that consistently exploits the weaknesses in how Western liberal democracies are organized.

I think the much bigger story here is how China's state capitalism is being used to probe structural weaknesses in Western free market capitalism. Under free market capitalism, the private sector and the state are fundamentally opposed. The government's proper role is to act as a guardian of the system and establish the rules of play so that the "free market" can flourish and the role of companies are to compete to the maximum extent inside the constraints of regulation. State capitalism comes from a totally different set of first principles, under state capitalism, the private sector is a collaborator with the state and the work in concert to further the goals of the nation. Companies are allowed to compete when it would be beneficial to the state that they compete and forced to co-operate when it's beneficial to the state that they co-operate. Both systems start from a very different set of first principles and they each have their own pros and cons but China knows how to exploit the cons of free market capitalism much better than the US knows how to exploit the cons of state capitalism.

One structural weakness of free market capitalism is that it has intrinsic difficulty dealing with co-ordination problems arising from prisoner's dilemma situations. Take the recent "Taiwan, China" airline thing. China announces that all airline websites must list the destination as "Taiwan, China" or risk losing rights to access the Chinese air market. Now, this risk is a total paper tiger, any sober minded analysis could demonstrate that China would be hurt way more than losing flight volume than they would gain from words on a webpage. If all US airlines stood up in unison and said they opposed the change, China would rapidly back down, the whole "hurt feelings" stuff is just window dressing for political negotiation. However, if all but one airline caved, that airline would get all of China's flight volume, China would not be meaningfully hurt but every other company would be damaged.

The problem is, there's no effective mechanism under free market capitalism to do that. The "right" mechanism would be for the government to simply pass a law saying all US airlines must not refer to Taiwan as Taiwan, China and China would have immediately backed down. The problem is

a) The US is utterly incapable of passing legislation these days.

b) Even if it were capable, this would be something considered a massive overreach by the state and would be dragged into lawsuits for years.

c) Absent legislation, such co-operation would be arguably even illegal as it would run afoul of anti-trust as cartel like behavior.

So, as China predicted, you had airlines folding one by one over an utterly trivial issue because the fundamental bedrock assumptions of free market capitalism do not allow them to do otherwise.

The difference with the Houston Rockets case is that the NBA does exist as a mechanism for there to be a unifying voice of the league. China initially played this the same way it always does, by performing a surgical culling of the Rockets specifically, they were expecting the rest of the league to be cowed and force the Rockets to back down. What they didn't realize was that professional sports in the US are run as a socialist collective and sports leagues are one of the only areas of American life which are explicitly sanctioned to run as a cartel. Thus, the NBA has the freedom to say fuck you to China in a way that movie studios and airlines cannot because they realize China needs the NBA more than the NBA needs China.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#102
post #41

I see lots of Anti-China sentiment. I would be very careful here into not falling into their deliberate trap of making "The West" China's "Enemy". China in its current totalitarian form needs an "Enemy" to survive, without it, it has to deal with difficult internal questions which will force it to adapt and change - and this what scares them. Totalitarian governments rely on distraction and misdirection of the popula…

> China in its current totalitarian form needs an "Enemy" to survive Not at all. The whole premise of Chinese policy and the key to the Party's survival is not about fighting enemies. It's simply about developing the country and putting it on an equal footing with the other superpower(s). Even if you watch or read the heavily controlled Chinese media, it's never about fighting anyone or pointing the finger at anyone.…

Ironically the biggest inflection point in China's increase in standard of living was Deng Xiaoping's market based reforms in the early 1970s.

This backsliding to authoritarianism under Xi is sure to lower GDP per Capita growth over the medium and long run -- you need inclusive economic institutions for economic innovation and creativity to be fostered.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#103
post #70
post #17

Attempts by China to leverage market access into self-censorship by U.S. companies should also be treated as trade violations that are subject to retaliation. Thank you, Ben, for this honest appraisal which involves sticking out your neck and perhaps even harming your ability to travel to China or expand your business. Regarding this comment about Apple: And then there is Apple: the company is deeply exposed to China…

As far as I know China has done little to threaten it's status as the world's manufacturer, anyone can build there. It is access to their internal markets that they've used as leverage. For example Google is not allowed to sell their products to their internal markets but they are allowed to manufacture their devices there without problems.

But Samsung factory has left China. And more other factories have left China as well. Yeah anyone can build there but fewer and fewer are willing to. That may be true for the trend from now on.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#104
post #4

This article frames this as the US vs China, but it's really been the "Western world" vs China. And the western world has been incredibly naive and uncoordinated when it comes to dealing with China. We've all accepted the incredibly one-sided deal, in some kind of idealistic hope that the Chinese would latch on to "western" values of democracy etc just by trading with us. Edit: World -> Western world.

> And the western world has been incredibly naive and uncoordinated when it comes to dealing with China.

Some of us were paying attention in the '90s and we're still paying attention.

Here are some interesting items to review:

1 - McDonnell Douglas (yep the same gang that ruined Boeing): https://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/29/business/mcdonnell-dougla...

2 - "Pentagon Blessing" https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB832727883654550000

3 - https://www.nytimes.com/1999/10/20/us/us-indicts-mcdonnell-d...

4 - https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/how-bill-clinton-and-amer...

5 - https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israe...

6 - https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/why-tech-transfe...

"naive and uncoordinated"

It has always seemed rather coordinated to this observer. No comment regarding "naive".

"We've all accepted the incredibly one-sided deal"

Who is this "We"? Did we take a vote on this? This was decided on high up per some undisclosed calculus like everything else substantial while the corporate media beguiles "Us" with peripheral, low brow, histrionics.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#105

World superpowers and associated people should not take tweets so seriously. People read too much meaning and emotion into throwaway comments.

That just waves away the fact that Twitter and other places like it on the internet are THE platforms for conversation and statements. It's seemingly a statement that assumes internet based communication is secondary to real-life communication. And that's just not the case in 2019.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they don't own any factories, right? Wouldn't it destroy Foxconn and only defer revenue a bit for Apple? Maybe a few people who just gotta have the newest, latest, and greatest gadget will switch to a Flagship android because they can't wait for the new iPhone. But most people are pretty loyal / trapped into their mobile ecosystem. I doubt it would materially affect Apple's market share or their revenue long-term…

The manufacturing cost of an iphone is closer to 400 dollars, the cost of manufacturing doubling would be a huge hit to apple.

That is way above its assembly costs, you must be including components also right?

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#107
post #41

I see lots of Anti-China sentiment. I would be very careful here into not falling into their deliberate trap of making "The West" China's "Enemy". China in its current totalitarian form needs an "Enemy" to survive, without it, it has to deal with difficult internal questions which will force it to adapt and change - and this what scares them. Totalitarian governments rely on distraction and misdirection of the popula…

It takes a lot of money and effort but it's China is only a decision away from pivoting it's story from external threats to internal ones.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#108
post #41

I see lots of Anti-China sentiment. I would be very careful here into not falling into their deliberate trap of making "The West" China's "Enemy". China in its current totalitarian form needs an "Enemy" to survive, without it, it has to deal with difficult internal questions which will force it to adapt and change - and this what scares them. Totalitarian governments rely on distraction and misdirection of the popula…

> Thus the best way "oppose a government that is the sworn enemy of values you regard as precious" is to allow it to face its internal discord without giving it the "enemy" it so desperately needs as ammunition to use against you.

If the CCP wants to make the US out as China's enemy, they'll make us out to be their enemy, even if they have to lie and distort to do so. The CCP has near-total control of the PRC's domestic media can easily block foreign media if it doesn't already, so there's little stopping them. For instance, IIRC, they're currently pushing a false theory to domestic audiences that the HK protests are just a CIA orchestrated plot.

> EDIT: There are many comments that I think are misguided attacking this concept, here is rebuttal to them:

Why don't you post your rebuttals in replies to the comments in question?

> Proposition: If China wants to make the west an enemy, it will do so with or without us by the total control it has over its populace.

> Rebuttal: So the best counter plan is to help them in doing so?

You misunderstand: if they're going to do it anyway, it's foolish to try to constrain you actions in an attempt to control them. You gain nothing and only give them more control of the situation.

For instance: the CCP tries to blur the lines between the CCP, the PRC government, and the Chinese nation. An action against the CCP could be presented as an action against the nation in Chinese domestic media, do you think that should stop actions against the CCP? Similarly, the CCP will interpret actions to support Taiwan as hostile to it, does that mean the US should abandon (democratic) Taiwan to avoid some kind of censure in Chinese state-controlled media?

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#109
post #95
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly my point. You, an American citizen, call it "economic power being concentrated by foreign states". But Chinese citizens call it "ordinary people boycotting offensive speech". It's the NFL kneeling protests and boycotts again, except divided by country rather than by red/blue within the US. It's annoying to have people you don't know come in and tell you your speech is offensive, and if you want that t…

Nobody, including Chinese citizens thinks this is "ordinary people boycotting offensive speech", this is government action.

How do you know? I see literally zero direct evidence for this in the linked post -- only that some people in China responded. Not everybody in China is working for the government.

When analogous statements are found offensive in the US, US citizens, US tech companies, and the US media can act with astonishing speed and coordination to stamp them out. That doesn't mean that the US government is directing all of it.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that Cook became CEO because of his logistics and operations work in China, so there is a lot of legacy to go on. Apple assembles iPhones in Brazil and I believe India now, but these are mostly for high tariff reasons. Much of what goes into an iPhone isn’t made in china (and what is made in China can easily be made elsewhere), but they are mostly made in east Asia, so having assembly done somewhere in the regio…

I keep thinking, with the level of (superpower conflict) risk we're talking about here, Taiwan certainly, and Vietnam probably, are not far enough away from China to be safe.

Right, if the region goes to hell, then that would disrupt everything for a decade or so until all the component manufacturers could be replicated elsewhere.
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