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Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

latimes.com

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Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#101

Post by westurner »

"a11y": Accessibility

https://a11yproject.com/ has patterns, a checklist for checking web accessibility, resources, and events.

awesome-a11y has a list of a number of great resources for developing accessible applications: https://github.com/brunopulis/awesome-a11y

In terms of W3C specifications [1], you've got: WAI-ARIA (Web Accessibility Initiative: Accessibile Rich Internet Applications) [2], and WCAG: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines [3]. The new W3C Payment Request API [4] makes it easy for browsers to offer a standard (and probably(?) already accessible) interface for the payment data entry screen, at least.

There are a number of automated accessibility testing platforms. "[W3C WAI] Web Accessibility Evaluation Tools List" [5] lists quite a few. Can someone recommend a good accessibility testing tools? Is Google Lighthouse (now included with Chrome Devtools and as a standalone script) a good tool for accessibility reviews?

[1] https://github.com/brunopulis/awesome-a11y/blob/master/topic...

[2] https://www.w3.org/TR/using-aria/

[3] https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/

[4] https://www.w3.org/TR/payment-request/

[5] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#102

Post by freeone3000 »

smnrchrds wrote: post #23
yostrovs wrote: post #12

Does the ADA really apply and enforced at all publicly available businesses? Does every Chinese restaurant in Chinatown have a Braille menu? If we really start enforcing this, only larger businesses will survive.

I am not familiar with the details of ADA. Would it not suffice if a server reads the menu out loud upon request by a blind patron?

Yes, it would! This is actually an example used in compliance guidelines: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/smallbusiness/smallbusprimer201...

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#103

Post by rhizome »

tyingq wrote: post #80
notyourwork wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key is actually using a screen reader and better yet having someone with accessibly needs provide feedback. Following guidelines is great but usability is only great when you actually see how someone interacts with your site. Again though, it’s not that hard.

On the other hand, there's probably two goals here. Making it work well, and avoiding a lawsuit. I imagine the latter involves a lot more work.

There are two goals only if you don't do the first one. It's like saying the two biggest goals in owning a knife: not stabbing people and staying out of prison.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#104

Post by couchand »

chrischen wrote: post #66

Is there a checker to see if a website is accessible, and how to make it accessible (like the ones for SEO and site-speed optimizations)?

Lighthouse is pretty good: https://developers.google.com/web/tools/lighthouse/

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#105

Post by mattnewton »

dexwiz wrote: post #48

I see a lot of negativity in the comments. I imagine much of that is gut reactions of web developers hearing they need to do more work. As a web developer that has had to pass an accessibility review from a person who is actually blind each release for the last two years, I can tell you it’s not that hard. Make sure you have a sensible tab order and labels on forms and you are 80% there. The hard issues are creating…

It's actually really, really hard whenever you go off the beaten path with your UX. That's not really important though, what's important is that companies recognize this is needed and adequately staff it, and engineers are empowered to push back on designs that don't translate to screen readers well.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#106

Post by verroq »

Meekro wrote: post #46
colejohnson66 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some deals were online only. Presumably to encourage people to use the website and not bother employees with having to answer the phone.

That's a fair point. Sounds like this can be resolved with a simple new rule: if you're blind, you can get online-only deals over the phone.

So now everyone can pretend to be blind to take advantage of online only deals on the phone?

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#107

Post by tylerl »

notyourwork wrote: post #76
DoreenMichele wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't get (or use) Rewards points unless you order online. They also have online coupons and discounts. They actively encourage customers to order online, pick up in person and do carry out. Most locations have minimal seating and minimal staff. Some don't even bother to have bathrooms for their customers. Their business model actively tries to reduce the amount of overhead for the business by promoting online or…

Seems like they missed a demographic with their strategy. It shouldn’t be hard to add accessibility support to their site.

I think that misses the point. There's a mile of difference between adding sufficient accessibility to serve a demographic vs adding new legal requirements.

(Especially new requirements for which customers are financially incentivised to file suits, and for it's trivially simple to code up automated scanning to find businesses you can target.)

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#108

Post by Sukotto »

mltony wrote: post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

In your opinion, what major sites are doing it right?

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#109

Post by gtfratteus »

freeone3000 wrote: post #75
ccleve wrote: post #58

On the surface, this sounds like a fine thing. Who doesn't want accessible websites? But it really opens a can of worms. What's a place of public accommodation? With brick-and-mortar, it's easy; if you have a physical location open to the general public, it probably qualifies. But on the web? Does my personal website count? What if I sell t-shirts on it? What if I don't sell anything, but have forums where the public…

No, your personal website does not count. Yes, it does if you sell t-shirts. No, a forum is insufficient, it needs to actually be a business. Yes, aria labels are compelled speech, but they're upheld[1]. There would be an exemption if the burden was "undue", but you're not going to meet that by claiming it's a few extra hours of work. If accessibility standards change, you are compelled to upgrade your site if you're…

Nice opinions you got there, but unless you become dictator of the US, they are completely worthless and irrelevant to this conversation.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#110

Post by ncallaway »

mltony wrote: post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

I'd like to make sure I'm testing more of the website that I work on to make sure they're as accessible as possible.

I want to do more than just run sites through validators. Is JAWS still a good accessibility program to test with? Are there other major accessibility programs I should be testing with?

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