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United Kingdom Budget Visualization

uk.wikibudgets.org

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Re: United Kingdom Budget Visualization

#101

Post by fauigerzigerk »

ibeckermayer wrote: post #66
reallydontask wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... because it chips away at the very concept of majority rule and proportional representation. I'm not entirely sure how to read this comment. This country has one of the least representative electoral systems in the whole of the EU and this is for the commons, nevermind the wholly unelected lords.

Do you recognize that this comment doesn’t expose anything contradictory in the OP? The British system can be far from ideal, and yet it still wouldn’t be better to overlay an even less accountable, more centralized government on top of it.

I think the point is proportional representation. For instance, as a Lib Dem or Green voter living in a constituency with a strong Labour or Tory majority, you are not represented in the UK parliament at all.

Being able to influence EU decisions through the EU parliament, which uses a more proportional voting system, at least gives you some democratic representation and accountability.

Besides, "overlay" is not quite the right word for the relationship between the EU and the national level. The term used in Article 5 of the EU Treaty is subsidiarity, which essentially means to handle things as locally as possible and as globally as necessary to solve the problem. So it's not like the EU gets to overrule national parliaments on anything and everything.

Of course you can endlessly debate what's possible and necessary in each individual case. But that's unavoidable. They're having the exact same debate in the US and the proponents of Scottish independence have yet another take on it.

Re: United Kingdom Budget Visualization

#102

Post by mellosouls »

quietbritishjim wrote: post #44
ackshually wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't vote leave because of the money. I voted leave because I was dubious about the control the elected and unelected officials and secretaries in brussels had over British politics, and the rats nest of well paid jobs with crazy benefits waiting for british politicians in brussels when they retire from british politics, so long as they play nice with the EU and go along with the will of the government in Brussel…

I know Hacker News policy is to not talk about votes, but can we please be more vote friendly to this user, especially as they're new? I find it's very rare to see a Brexiteer in my usual bubble so I'm grateful to hear the opposing view. (At time of making this comment, the parent is greyed out from down votes.)

Unfortunately this is pretty standard on HN, plenty vote down just because they don't like the other person's point of view, irrespective of the quality of the argument.

Re: United Kingdom Budget Visualization

#103

Post by dragonwriter »

nvarsj wrote: post #84
fergie wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Lets call him "Johnson". "Boris" is either patronising or affectionate, and neither is appropriate for a head of state.) No Conservative government has served an entire term with an outright majority since Thatcher in the 1980s. Johnson is in a sense "unelected", but his premiership is no less legitimate than that of Cameron or Major. Like it or not, Johnson was the "biggest" voice behind the successful Brexit campa…

I’m not sure this is true. Cameron had a majority government after the 2015 election. Prior there was a coalition government which also held a majority. May lost the majority after the snap election and had to build a coalition with the DUP and others. In Johnson’s case he doesn’t have any majority at all. It’s a weird situation that only exists afaik because of the fixed term act, as the PM can no longer trigger an…

> It’s a weird situation that only exists afaik because of the fixed term act, as PM can no longer trigger an election when he loses the majority

And even then, it only exists because Johnson is overtly trying to use the disruption of an election as a mechanism to enable no-deal, which is why Parliament refuses to let him have one.

Re: United Kingdom Budget Visualization

#104

Post by mellosouls »

pjc50 wrote: post #68
quietbritishjim wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Hacker News policy is to not talk about votes, but can we please be more vote friendly to this user, especially as they're new? I find it's very rare to see a Brexiteer in my usual bubble so I'm grateful to hear the opposing view. (At time of making this comment, the parent is greyed out from down votes.)

At this point, anyone who's still a Brexiteer has engaged in some extremely selective listening. There's no point in having a discussion with someone who won't seriously address the entirely likely problems of Brexit, both as a concept and how it is currently being done. (I mean, Brexiting to the status of Norway might at least have been feasible, but that's now a long way in the rear view mirror.)

This dismissal of an entire group of people who just happen to have a different point of view to you is a major part of what is so toxic about the Brexit debate and political discourse in general.

Re: United Kingdom Budget Visualization

#105

Post by spoovy »

frobozz wrote: post #5

There, at the top of "Other Expenditures", Slightly smaller than running the Office of the Secretary of State for Wales. That is what's governing the entire political agenda right now. That's the amount of money stuck on the side of a bus with the suggestion that we could spend it on the NHS instead

This obsession with The Bus does remainers no favours. It was a highly misleading statement true, but you will see similar levels of spin at all elections without the losing party still banging on about it years later. Brexit was and is about sovereignty for most people I know who voted to leave. People felt that laws being made were too distant from them (EU directives; same thing). this is no different a sentiment from the one that drives the Scottish nationalists, though I don't remember the London hipster set laying into them with endless ad hominem attacks?

Re: United Kingdom Budget Visualization

#106

Post by cja »

OscarCunningham wrote: post #80
ChrisRR wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you stop with this train of thought though? Why do the MPs from the north have any say about what governs me in Berkshire? It's the same argument just at a larger scale.

Nations are magical. It's bad for Polish people to immigrate here and take our jobs, but it's fine for people to move around within the UK. We need to tax the rich more to end the homelessness on our streets, but we have no obligation to help those in Africa. We need to use tariffs to protect our farmers, but there's no problem with shipping food across the country.

1. Nations exist and have implications.

2a. If a Pole used to a certain living standard is happy to work for a lower wage than a Briton who is used to a higher standard of living then is that good or bad? Is it ok to have an opinion about it? Is it ok to have an opinion about it if you are a low paid Briton and a million Poles move to the UK?

2b. The UK is of finite size. Population is concentrated in certain areas within it. A significant growth in population has an effect. It affects traffic ("but we could build more roads" "but maybe I like the countryside and don't want more roads"), it affects housing ("but we could build more accommodation" "but maybe all that housing will be built close to jobs and amenities and thus be small and ugly and result in more crowded towns and cities and maybe I have a subjective view about that"), etc.

3. Foreign aid budgets and charities. More can be done. Make a donation! Be the change!

4. National security. Food rationing in the second world war. Farmers look after the countryside. Maybe we like to have farms and farmers. Is it ok to like to have farmers and farming? The EU thinks so - read about the CAP.

Re: United Kingdom Budget Visualization

#107

Post by apexalpha »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #85
lucb1e wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things I found interesting: - We spend a billion on water management ("deltafonds"). I had no idea it took so much upkeep. I also like subsection "experiments" of 21 million euros. - 21 million still goes to "healthcare for resistance fighters and victims of world war 2", plus 246 million for pensions of the same group ( https://rijksfinancien.nl/visuele-begroting/2018/jv/u/volksg... ). We're still paying for th…

I see a section for €48b for national debt. I thought the Netherlands was one of the few countries to not have debt?

If only. We currently have a debt of €400bn. Or 49% of GDP.

https://www.debtclocks.eu/public-debt-and-budget-deficit-of-...

Re: United Kingdom Budget Visualization

#108

Post by fergie »

goodcanadian wrote: post #91
fergie wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Lets call him "Johnson". "Boris" is either patronising or affectionate, and neither is appropriate for a head of state.) No Conservative government has served an entire term with an outright majority since Thatcher in the 1980s. Johnson is in a sense "unelected", but his premiership is no less legitimate than that of Cameron or Major. Like it or not, Johnson was the "biggest" voice behind the successful Brexit campa…

Boris Johnson is not head of state. He is head of government

Yes, good point. A digital slip of the pen. Have updated my original comment.

Re: United Kingdom Budget Visualization

#109

Post by OscarCunningham »

cja wrote: post #106
OscarCunningham wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nations are magical. It's bad for Polish people to immigrate here and take our jobs, but it's fine for people to move around within the UK. We need to tax the rich more to end the homelessness on our streets, but we have no obligation to help those in Africa. We need to use tariffs to protect our farmers, but there's no problem with shipping food across the country.

1. Nations exist and have implications. 2a. If a Pole used to a certain living standard is happy to work for a lower wage than a Briton who is used to a higher standard of living then is that good or bad? Is it ok to have an opinion about it? Is it ok to have an opinion about it if you are a low paid Briton and a million Poles move to the UK? 2b. The UK is of finite size. Population is concentrated in certain areas w…

My point is that none of those arguments have anything about them that makes them specific to nations. For example 2a could equally be said by someone in London about immigration from the North.

Why do we let these arguments have force at the national level but ignore them at subnational and supernational levels?

Re: United Kingdom Budget Visualization

#110

Post by fergie »

nvarsj wrote: post #84
fergie wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Lets call him "Johnson". "Boris" is either patronising or affectionate, and neither is appropriate for a head of state.) No Conservative government has served an entire term with an outright majority since Thatcher in the 1980s. Johnson is in a sense "unelected", but his premiership is no less legitimate than that of Cameron or Major. Like it or not, Johnson was the "biggest" voice behind the successful Brexit campa…

I’m not sure this is true. Cameron had a majority government after the 2015 election. Prior there was a coalition government which also held a majority. May lost the majority after the snap election and had to build a coalition with the DUP and others. In Johnson’s case he doesn’t have any majority at all. It’s a weird situation that only exists afaik because of the fixed term act, as the PM can no longer trigger an…

Its true that Cameron won a majority in 2015- he just didn't manage to serve a full term. John Major took over from Margaret Thatcher (and so was unelected) and then despite winning the election in 1992, lost his majority again in 1996.

So yes, it seems shocking, but the last Conservative leader to win an election and then serve a full term of majority government was Thatcher from '83 to '87

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