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NPM CEO Bryan Bogensberger Resigned

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Re: NPM CEO Bryan Bogensberger Resigned

#101
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish companies Because it's not a soap opera and you're not owed anything about the personal business of other people. As an individual, I have every right to control the narrative for why I've left a company (assuming nothing illegal).

Sure but at a certain point it just harms your credibility if instead of owning up to the incredibly bad mistakes you still pretend you're only leaving because the grass is greener elsewhere. I know it's standard business procedure to outright lie about these things but it becomes farcical when you basically sink an entire company and then get to "resign" and pretend it's not because you did a terrible job.

> Sure but at a certain point it just harms your credibility

Only if it's a recurring issue. People can be a horrible contributor at Company A and a rockstar at Company B - should my entire future be anchored because of a single event? No thanks.

> I know it's standard business procedure to outright lie about these things

This is just silly. It's no different than how anyone reacts in any non-professional setting. Do you tell everyone in your life about every fuck up you make? So why expect that from our professional peers?

Re: NPM CEO Bryan Bogensberger Resigned

#102
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing your personal opinion, I appreciate. The fact that I shared my story like I did and doing now was beneficial on all levels for me. I stayed true to my principles and values. I was approach by companies and managers who have the same values also. It helped me go back on my feet emotionally and professionally way more quickly. My personal take is that whatever you do, no matter if it's about deciding…

Well, stylistically the first 20 tweets of the Twitter thread read like an introduction to to the story, rather than an actual story (and the rest looks like followup), so that makes for one really confused reading. That's perfectly understandable considering your emotional state at the time, but now that you are a bit more calm, please don't misrepresent this as a brief summary, which is the point of the original qu…

Interesting, maybe it was lost in translation as English isn't my first language, but "here is some background" doesn't mean "here is the brief summary" for me. It also doesn't mean here is the complete story and the only truth. Sorry if I wasn't clear. IMHO, I still think that if people take the time to read the thread and the articles written by media like New York Times, The Register and Business Insider, it should give a proper "brief summary" (of what can be said without bringing any legal issues) for the person who asked for it.

Re: NPM CEO Bryan Bogensberger Resigned

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The Node ecosystem is a huge liability just waiting to happen. Any organization that depends on NPM is making a huge gamble. You can do a lot to mitigate this (private NPM repo, locks) but the reality is that the dependency chains are dangerous. Is someone in an organization going to audit all of those dependencies? Especially under the circumstances where they've been declared without an explicit version (>, >=…

As someone who has no insight into the Node/NPM/JS world, how is this different from Python's PyPi, which I would think suffers the same issue?

Difference in approach to libraries and the standard library.

NPM/Node is very much a "we only provide the bare minimum for a language, everything else must be implemented on your own." The JavaScript stdlib is very small (not that weird when you consider it's originally a language to do stuff with in your browser).

The result is that a lot of "simple" functionality that most languages would put in the stdlib (left-pad is the most infamous example) has to be reimplemented by library developers. Now because programmers are for the most part not interested in copying the same code over and over, this means that these simple functionalities end up on the npm, which are then used in somewhat bigger libraries, right up until you essentially create a massive dependency chain for each major library, since the dependencies for that library rely on other dependencies and so on so forth.

This sounds interesting in theory, but in reality this almost always means that if one thing in this chain breaks (for example a "simple" library introduces a breaking change but doesn't properly adhere semantic, since nobody enforces semantic on the npm although it's recommended), essentially the entire chain is broken and the top level library stops functioning as well.

And then you end up with packages such as left-pad, which provide simple functionality that is almost universally needed for almost all major libraries. Now the last thing you want to have happen here is that the maintainer either removes or breaks the package, since this essentially results into a dependency hell cascade as suddenly several millions of packages are broken.

Python on the other hand has probably one of the biggest standard libraries I've seen in a programming language, and the difference is outstanding. Most PyPi libraries are moreso focused on adding specialized features or simplifying otherwise lower level libraries into more higher level ones (ie. requests is really nothing other than a really good wrapper around urllib). There's very few "simple functionality" libraries for PyPi, since most of this functionality is already in the standard library. Usually if a library that is "simple functionality" isn't in the standard library, it's because it changes too often (standard library is mainly for unchanging code. eg, requests) or is still somewhat specialized (ie. sqlalchemy or a couple of validator packages I use).

There's pro's to Nodes approach (ie. you're generally not locked down to a single approach), but generally Pythons approach on library management is better in my opinion.

Re: NPM CEO Bryan Bogensberger Resigned

#104
post #18

I’m fascinated by the fact that while node has become a new standard in the industry , and the project is receiving lots of supports from all sorts of companies ( IBM , Microsoft etc...) absolutely no discussion has been opened about how much at risk the JavaScript ecosystem actually is with « npm » and it’s weekly dramas Not a month pass without something going wrong inside of inc, millions of developers are dependa…

Honest question, is it that much better in other communities? In particular, it's there anything inherent to npm that's problematic or is it just that a huge community with a Unix mindset (small packages that does one thing well) is problematic?

It was a problem in otherwise very successful perl's CPAN. I don't recall any "dramas", but because of a huge number of dependencies installing Catalyst had a low change of going right the first time. But! Because of the test everything culture and CPAN testers effort broken modules were very rare. So after you managed to set up your system and had a long walk while tests would run it was guaranteed to work. More or less.

Re: NPM CEO Bryan Bogensberger Resigned

#105
post #18

I’m fascinated by the fact that while node has become a new standard in the industry , and the project is receiving lots of supports from all sorts of companies ( IBM , Microsoft etc...) absolutely no discussion has been opened about how much at risk the JavaScript ecosystem actually is with « npm » and it’s weekly dramas Not a month pass without something going wrong inside of inc, millions of developers are dependa…

There has been. CJ Silverio gave a talk on that topic at JSConf this year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO8hZlgK5zc See also Entropic as a possible alternative to NPM: https://github.com/entropic-dev/entropic

i doubt entropic will become sth significant. it already lost the momentum it seems.

Re: NPM CEO Bryan Bogensberger Resigned

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone knowing he's lying is probably a better PR situation than everyone knowing the truth.

It's sad that we tolerate such blatant lies as normal.

You're not tolerating anything, you weren't entitled to know in the first place.

Re: NPM CEO Bryan Bogensberger Resigned

#107
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone upthread asked "why is NPM different from PyPi/pip in this?" There are lots of practical answers - PyPi is open source, Python packages aren't so fragmented, and so on. But honestly, a huge part of the difference is that PyPi has sponsors like PyPi and AWS using its baseline implementation. NPM's private repository system means the public system just doesn't have that kind of pressure on it.

I would be deeply surprised if AWS teams use public pypi. Much more reasonable would be to mirror public packages they use internally. What if a minor version change contains a relicensing of the library, for instance?

Good point. Presumably they're fixing versions, even companies on public registries should do that to avoid re-licensing issues, but it'd be an unreasonable legal & security risk.

I guess my broader thought was that PyPi is a more reliable free offering than NPM because it's not focused on a 'premium' version for the biggest users. But that's different than AWS - presumably they're sponsoring it in a broader "making development accessible is good for AWS" sense.

Re: NPM CEO Bryan Bogensberger Resigned

#108
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be deeply surprised if AWS teams use public pypi. Much more reasonable would be to mirror public packages they use internally. What if a minor version change contains a relicensing of the library, for instance?

Good point. Presumably they're fixing versions, even companies on public registries should do that to avoid re-licensing issues, but it'd be an unreasonable legal & security risk. I guess my broader thought was that PyPi is a more reliable free offering than NPM because it's not focused on a 'premium' version for the biggest users. But that's different than AWS - presumably they're sponsoring it in a broader "making…

It's funny because reflecting on this thread later, I got what you were getting in that: the mere fact that NPM offers a private registry means that they are having to split focus on the two offerings. I completely agree in that sense!
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