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Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

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Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#101

Post by geofft »

partialrecall wrote: post #12
smacktoward wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyway, he probably should have know better than to weigh in. RMS is not exactly famous for his keen social skills.

It really seems like his real 'sin' is not being neurotypical. Should he try to have more tact? Sure, of course. But failing that, the correct response is compassion and gentle correction, not a witchhunt. Not driving him out of his jobs.

Matthew Garrett, who served on the FSF board of directors, wrote about the "not being neurotypical" hypothesis two days ago: https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/52587.html

In particular, he says he did try to do the compassion and gentle correction work, and Stallman had no interest in it.

Stallman's job has a job description - leading the Free Software Foundation. If he's not leading it effectively, it is important for his own cause that he step away, and it is important that the FSF Board do their job by finding someone more effective at it. If he's not suited for it for reasons outside of his control and never will be, that's all the more reason that we should compassionately and gently get him to find another job.

(Also, I think this argument is deeply unfair to the many neuroatypical people in this world who still manage to not say the things Stallman does - which is in most cases not merely a matter of "tact," but even so, many of whom put conscious, learned effort into having tact. I have friends with all sorts of things going on in their brain who are wonderful people and in many cases also wonderful free software authors, and I think this argument does them a disservice.)

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#102

Post by vivekd »

codesushi42 wrote: post #78
esotericn wrote: post #16

Is anyone else baffled by the idea that discussing something on an intellectual level, even related to a person, has to somehow be a 'defense' or an 'offense'? I've spent basically my entire life discussing things in the abstract. I'm not a politician, I don't make laws, and frankly I wouldn't want that power. To me it makes absolute sense that someone would attempt to "defend" even the most heinous person. It's weir…

What the hell are you talking about? What intellectual level? Stallman is quoted to have said: Stallman wrote that “the most plausible scenario” for Giuffre’s accusations was that she was, in actuality, “entirely willing.” How is that a rational, defensible statement in any terms?

That would be completely irrational and indefensible, but it's also not what Stallman wrote. What he wrote was that Epstien had the power to force his victims to act as they were willing. Stallman said he believes the victim was being coerced, just that she was being forced by Epstein to act as if she was doing these sex acts out of her own free will.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#103

Post by mjevans »

codesushi42 wrote: post #78
esotericn wrote: post #16

Is anyone else baffled by the idea that discussing something on an intellectual level, even related to a person, has to somehow be a 'defense' or an 'offense'? I've spent basically my entire life discussing things in the abstract. I'm not a politician, I don't make laws, and frankly I wouldn't want that power. To me it makes absolute sense that someone would attempt to "defend" even the most heinous person. It's weir…

What the hell are you talking about? What intellectual level? Stallman is quoted to have said: Stallman wrote that “the most plausible scenario” for Giuffre’s accusations was that she was, in actuality, “entirely willing.” How is that a rational, defensible statement in any terms?

I am speculating about your specific question; NOT any specific real circumstances.

Which of these three seems more likely in GENERAL:

A) That this happened on a party island and all adults were willing.

B) That someone has been lead to believe this is a consensual act on some party island with willing people there; but in reality the victim is coerced into presenting false consent.

C) That the 'active offender' is aware of a lack of consent and that they are with a victim.

Since I choose to believe that at least a majority of humanity aren't evil; just more than likely stupid and easily tricked, I happen to believe that the set a circumstance being either A or B is more likely that C. I also believe that if "services" were legalized and HEAVILY REGULATED circumstances B and C would be FAR less likely to happen.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#104

Post by marcinzm »

jonnycomputer wrote: post #77
zinclozenge wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marriage has, since time immemorial, always been a contractual relationship. What you described is exactly what marriage is, there's no need to come up with another word or term when a perfectly good one already exists.

"since time immemorial" irrelevant. not all contracts are sanctioned or defined by the state. the problem is that christians see the state as sanctioning their religious institution, and now, perverting it. the solution is to have the state get out of the business of sanctioning it.

>the solution is to have the state get out of the business of sanctioning it.

Legality is tied to morality and morality is tied to religion (in those who believe in religion). You cannot separate them out in a society with high regard for religion. Even if you remove religion you still have the cultural views on morality which become tied to the state's laws.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#105

Post by twiceaday »

esotericn wrote: post #16

Is anyone else baffled by the idea that discussing something on an intellectual level, even related to a person, has to somehow be a 'defense' or an 'offense'? I've spent basically my entire life discussing things in the abstract. I'm not a politician, I don't make laws, and frankly I wouldn't want that power. To me it makes absolute sense that someone would attempt to "defend" even the most heinous person. It's weir…

This is just a common over-simplification of a position. It is easier to share and digest so it travels better than the truth. This is what social media does to public discourse.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#106

Post by gruez »

mikekchar wrote: post #96
gruez wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

probably this: > Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long distances on false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or prostitution. He also reportedly raped some of those people. I believe those accusations, and I think he deserved to be imprisoned. >Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less wrong if…

The link does not contain the text you quoted (possibly because it is malformed). I also couldn't find that quote on a google search. Could you provide another link?

Did you scroll down? Both quotes could be found with firefox's control-f.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#107

Post by davinic »

flukus wrote: post #70
ceejayoz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2006: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20Jun... > I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing. 2013: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_Janua... > There is little ev…

Is it troubling because it's wrong or troubling because you don't like the answer? Is there evidence that teens willingly engaging in sex with an adult causes harm? As a society it seems we already accept this, we often have different laws like statutory rape for consenting participants. The implication here seems to be that just because he thinks there is no harm he is endorsing it as ok, that is getting dangerously…

I would hope that intelligent people know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#108

Post by [deleted] »

marcinzm wrote: post #76
esotericn wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never came up. If you're after my personal opinion - I think that the whole debate about gay marriage gets muddled because there's basically this interplay between the state and religion. So you end up in this weird place where - those who really believe in the religious aspects of marriage have to be against gay marriage because it's literally "against the rules", it doesn't compile. But then in the real world, we h…

The way I see it, the fight for gay marriage cannot be looked at without historical context. In many countries for a long time gay relationships were illegal. Punishable by jail or worse. Gay marriage is simply a step on a long road towards legalizing gay relationships. It doesn't matter what it would be called, historically gay people would not have been allowed to participate.

[deleted]

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#109

Post by geofft »

whymauri wrote: post #71
geofft wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe he was. He's listed as a "visiting scientist": https://www.csail.mit.edu/person/richard-stallman I think that just means that some faculty member is sponsoring you to have building access and a login account, more or less. (And the implications of affiliation of course.)

There's some less direct symbiotic benefits too, like the LibrePlanet has been at the MIT Stata Center for a couple years (at least). These sorts of things are facilitated by his role, for sure. I hope well-meaning conferences like that don't get disrupted by his resignation.

LibrePlanet has been at Stata through the sponsorship of SIPB, MIT's computer club, which has the ability to book rooms as a student group. Not through Stallman.

(disclosure, I am an alum SIPB member.)

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#110

Post by teh_klev »

mikekchar wrote: post #96
gruez wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

probably this: > Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long distances on false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or prostitution. He also reportedly raped some of those people. I believe those accusations, and I think he deserved to be imprisoned. >Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less wrong if…

The link does not contain the text you quoted (possibly because it is malformed). I also couldn't find that quote on a google search. Could you provide another link?

Do a ctrl-F, it's there.
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