Live data from Hacker News

Did Setting a Timeline Doom the Fight Against Global Warming?

onezero.medium.com

101–110 of 138 posts

Re: Did Setting a Timeline Doom the Fight Against Global Warming?

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is what a carbon tax is, and it's what many scientists and economists have been pushing for decades now. But they've been fighting a losing battle against the oil and gas lobby, and one party in particular that is wholly captured by them. You missed the forest for the trees. As the OP pointed out, the US going to zero emissions overnight will not even help. US politics will not solve Nigeria's, China's, or Indi…

There's a path dependence to everything. Had we started earlier, we would have shaped the curve of possibilities: renewables would be cheaper, storage solutions would have come online earlier, etc. We would have shaped international dialogue and culture around this issue too, with other nations following the US's lead as far as policies and technologies adopted. Real world example of path dependence: Supreme Court st…

But the problem is that the policies are wrong. They start from the premise that what matters is behavioral change, not technological change. We need $100 billion/year of federal money into thorium and battery research, not "green jobs" or Kyoto protocol. We don't need a "New Deal" to avert climate change, we need a Manhattan Project. But I absolutely agree that we needed those things starting 30 years ago.

Re: Did Setting a Timeline Doom the Fight Against Global Warming?

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the people predicting climate change isn’t the club of Rome, it’s an entire scientific community, who have been double, triple, and quadruple checking every measurement and assumption for 50 years. This is not some hysterical group of panicked hippies. We’re talking about broad consensus among all the most educated and intelligent members of our civilization. Please show a little respect and listen to them.

You are missing the fact that the salesmen of climate change have been politicians, and politicians lie, and politicians propose political solutions, they want more and more of my limited money, and browbeat people who already don’t like or trust them, and frankly that is a bad combination of tactics if the solution is needed that badly across the broad spectrum of the population. If climate change stops being sold a…

Absolutely this, the fight for climate change was lost 20 years ago when Al Gore made it one of his campaign goals. Things like CO2 climate change or net neutrality that 90% of the population had absolutely no opinion previously on are best resolved in the background because as soon as a politician tells people what opinion they should have, 50% of them are going to take the opposite side simply because of the letter next to their name. Politicizing anything is a guaranteed way to ensure it will be in a substandard limbo forever.

Re: Did Setting a Timeline Doom the Fight Against Global Warming?

#103
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switching 100% of electricity production to nuclear would be very hard (though maaaybe possible) and very expensive to do within a decade (the mean time to construct a reactor is 7.5 years, so we'd have to launch immense construction projects right now), but that's not a solution that brings you even close to zero emissions. Electricity is just a small part (roughly 25%) of them. To get close to zero emissions you'd…

> These three things won't be sufficient, but are required to even approach zero emissions. Does it seem plausible to suceed in somehow forcing everyone worldwide to implement such policies within a decade? So governments should better finance mitigations for the consequences of climate change.

There's no magic external source of resources. The wallet of "governments" is the wallet of the people. If people don't vote for a huge increase in taxes to finance mitigation or prevention (I mean, that's the whole point - the scale of resources needed for preventing climate change is very, very large, it's not like you can just increase the budget deficit by 1% and fund that), then governments can't and won't finance large scale mitigation or prevention.

Of course, people will eventually be forced to finance mitigations or suffer the consequences unmitigated - but that's not now, that's later. Prevention is likely to be much cheaper and more effective, but as the people aren't willing to pony up the enormous resources for prevention, well, then they'll pony up enormous resources (or take enormous suffering) when the time comes. But apparently not much earlier.

And the fact that causes and effects aren't equally distributed doesn't mean that countries (both governments and people) who suffer less will be willing to finance mitigations for the countries who bear the worst of the consequences.

Re: Did Setting a Timeline Doom the Fight Against Global Warming?

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and they are repeatedly wrong in their predictions. We can't accurately forecast the weather a few days out. All our great hurricane model forecasts are off and that's typically a day or two out in the future. There are just far too many variables at play that we don't even know about for us to accurately forecast anything climate related that far into the future.

You don’t have to be able to predict weather to predict climate. Think of it this way: it’s impossible due to quantum uncertainty to predict the path of a single particle in a gas. Yet out of the chaos, you can still draw out nice mathematical rules like the ideal gas law PV=nRT

I agree. My issue is the climate predictions that we do have over the last 50 years have been grossly inaccurate. We don't have any mathematical proofs for climate at this point like ideal gas law. But yet that is not how it is presented to the public.

Re: Did Setting a Timeline Doom the Fight Against Global Warming?

#105
post #3

Climate change was never going to be reversible with behavioral measures. Even if everyone had followed the Kyoto protocol to the letter starting in 1992 that wasn’t going to avert climate change, because nobody contemplated how quickly China and India would develop. There is no calculus where you can significantly limit climate change through behavioral measures that also allow the third world to have comfortable, m…

Did you watch Armageddon or Independence Day? Politicians are cornerstones of the solutions in both movies...

Especially presidents in fighter jets.

I kind of wish we were facing a killer asteroid or alien invasion instead of climate change, because the former two would be much easier to deal with. What's killing us with climate is the level of global coordination it requires.

Re: Did Setting a Timeline Doom the Fight Against Global Warming?

#106

What are the implications of 'irreversible'? Practically irreversible? Cannot be reversed naturally? If we run out of ice, what's to say cooling down the planet by halting carbon production won't recreate the ice caps?

You will find that predictions of climate change have been 100% false. Nobody has a crystal ball and nobody can predict what will happen in the future. So lets look into the past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_temperature_record#/m... About 20,000 years ago the earth was 10 celcius colder. For the last 20,000 years the earth has been warming pretty steadily. About 100,000 years ago the world was 5celcius war…

> predictions of climate change have been 100% false

That statement is itself 100% false, so far as I can tell. Here's one example. In 1982, some of Exxon's scientists wrote a memo for their management containing a graph (figure 3, page 7, of http://www.climatefiles.com/exxonmobil/1982-memo-to-exxon-ma...) saying that by 2020 CO2 levels would be in roughly the range 400..430 ppm and global mean temperature would be up by roughly 1..1.3 degrees C compared to 1960. Here we are in 2020 and the figures are about 410ppm and +0.9 degrees C. That matches up pretty well, wouldn't you say?

> For the last 20,2000 years the earth has been warming pretty steadily

What the graph you yourself linked to shows is something very different. There are wild oscillations in the Pleistocene (i.e., before 20k years ago), ending up with temperatures much colder than the present. Then a rapid increase from 20k to 10k years ago. Then near-flat temperatures for the last 10k years. And -- though it's over so short a period that it's hard to see on that graph -- an extremely rapid increase over the last ~50 years.

> All of those have already been disproven as false and not going to happen

How? By whom?

> we are more or less exactly flat

This https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/ is not what I would call "more or less exactly flat".

> look at those spikes ... frequently rapidly spiked up in temperature

You're looking at a portion of the Pleistocene, also known as the last Ice Age. Glaciers came and went, and the Eemian "spike" is one of those periods in which the glaciers melted. So, yes, indeed, temperatures "spiked up" and we had a transition from a large fraction of the earth's land area being covered in ice to hardly any of it being. Are you suggesting that we shouldn't be worried about climate change because the consequences might not be any more severe than those of the melting of an ice sheet covering the whole of Canada?

> it was fantastic for life

Pretty good for life overall, yes, and the climate change we're causing might be too. However, my own interests are parochial enough that I care much more what happens to our species and the others that we've grown to depend on, which is any entirely different question. For instance ...

> The Eocene 50 million years ago was 14 celsius warmer and life thrived

... 50M years ago, sea levels were something like 100m higher than they are now. There's a handy tool at http://www.floodmap.net/ that lets you explore the consequences of a given increase in sea level (though it's a bit glitchy and it looks like maybe it doesn't have data for anything too far from the equator). At 100m, things we would lose include: about half of England and Ireland; all of the Netherlands; half of Belgium; most of western France; all of Senegal, the Gambia, and Guinea-Bissau; huge amounts of the eastern USA including more or less all of Florida, Louisiana, Delaware and Rhode Island.

I'm sure life would thrive. The human race would adapt too, no doubt; we're a very adaptable species. But a whole lot of us would have our homes under water, and large regions of what's now the inhabitable world would become inhospitable to human life. E.g., a temperature rise of 14 degrees C turns San Francisco into Death Valley.

Re: Did Setting a Timeline Doom the Fight Against Global Warming?

#107
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure that works. That's like telling a child, "Watch out for that car. Oh! Lookout for that one, too." And the kid thinks, "Well, neither of those hit me, why should I care?" And the next one flattens him. Just because you can pick two things from the past that didn't turn out as expected doesn't mean the next potential danger isn't valid. Now, maybe we come up with some clever CO2 scrubbing technology and we sta…

> Not sure that works. That's like telling a child, "Watch out for that car. Oh! Lookout for that one, too." And the kid thinks, "Well, neither of those hit me, why should I care?" And the next one flattens him. Let natural selection do its job.

We prove our fitness by surviving.

Re: Did Setting a Timeline Doom the Fight Against Global Warming?

#108
post #39

I was alive in the 1970s when folks like the Club of Rome declared we'll all be dead form overpopulation and Malthusian collapse by the year 2000. Those self-same folks told us this century the arctic will be completely ice free by 2013. In the 1980s, others predicted our total demise due to acid rain and ozone depletion. Mean time, people are making good progress on both feeding the masses and curbing the exponentia…

> folks like the Club of Rome declared we'll all be dead from overpopulation and Malthusian collapse by the year 2000

Some of the actual predictions from the CoR's "Limits to Growth", according to the Wikipedia page about that document:

> Given business as usual, i.e., no changes to historical growth trends, the limits to growth on earth would become evident by 2072, leading to "sudden and uncontrollable decline in both population and industrial capacity".

(2072 is quite a long time after 2000. I wonder whether it's a typo for 2027, given what follows, but that too is a long time after 2000.)

> Global Industrial output per capita reaches a peak around 2008, followed by a rapid decline ... Global Food per capita reaches a peak around 2020, followed by a rapid decline ... Global Services per capita reaches a peak around 2020, followed by a rapid decline ... Global population reaches a peak in 2030, followed by a rapid decline

Those are all well after 2020. (The first of them doesn't seem like it's correct, thankfully. I suspect the others are some way off, too. But I'm not arguing that the CoR were right, only that they didn't say what you say they said.)

Re: Did Setting a Timeline Doom the Fight Against Global Warming?

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can't afford to undermine the economy. Heh. This is such a brilliant phrase that perfectly encapsulates everything that is wrong. We can't afford to not afford things. :D

It's the same argument the US south made for keeping and perpetuating slavery.

To clarify: It's not __my__ argument. I'm simply saying that the powers that be are maintaining the status quo because its what keeps them in power.

I'd like to add, I put "leader" in quotes but what should be done is something real leaders do. They're willing and able. Instead, we have people in charge who are no leaders, and thus we don't get leader-esque action from them. Essentially, the spineless leading the mindless.

Re: Did Setting a Timeline Doom the Fight Against Global Warming?

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure that works. That's like telling a child, "Watch out for that car. Oh! Lookout for that one, too." And the kid thinks, "Well, neither of those hit me, why should I care?" And the next one flattens him. Just because you can pick two things from the past that didn't turn out as expected doesn't mean the next potential danger isn't valid. Now, maybe we come up with some clever CO2 scrubbing technology and we sta…

> Just because you can pick two things from the past that didn't turn out as expected doesn't mean the next potential danger isn't valid. Correct, perhaps those issuing the warnings should accept the unfortunate reality that this is how average people behave and adjust their messaging. Rather than repetitive warning after warning, why not pool resources and focus on building and improving one single large educational…

Part of the problem is that there isn't a centralized Science Propaganda Council issuing these warnings, which could be told to do better. Scientists publish studies and sometimes strongly worded letters; journalists and authors pick it up and twist into something that (then) sells publications / (now) attracts eyeballs to advertisements; people mishear these reports further, freak out and tell to each other (or, today, post on social media).
Post reply on HN