Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Somehow I Became Respectable

theparisreview.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 120 posts

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#101

Post by ajxs »

asveikau wrote: post #66
ajxs wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supporting sensible controls on immigration hardly constitutes 'intolerance'. The framing of anything short of open-borders as 'intolerance' has perverted the entire modern political discussion.

"Imagine there's no countries." -John Lennon. I heard an interview of him where he explained that statement. He said it referred to before the rise of the modern nation-state, where you could walk somewhere and suddenly it was another country, and it just sort of worked as a continuum of places. The idea of passport control came out of World War I. Your boundary-heavy "sensible" version is a very small part of human…

Also, the suggestion that John Lennon's 'Imagine' was written before the rise of the 'modern nation-state' is complete and absolute rubbish. By the time John Lennon wrote that incredibly asinine song, India and Pakistan had already clashed at least three times over Kashmir. Israel had already fought wars against the surrounding countries five times, and the Soviet Union had already violently annexed many of its neighbors. I'm attacking this so vehemently to combat the risk that anyone might be tempted to believe such foolishness. Even if your statements were in any way factually correct they would be meaningless in the context of today's world.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#102

Post by asveikau »

ajxs wrote: post #101
asveikau wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Imagine there's no countries." -John Lennon. I heard an interview of him where he explained that statement. He said it referred to before the rise of the modern nation-state, where you could walk somewhere and suddenly it was another country, and it just sort of worked as a continuum of places. The idea of passport control came out of World War I. Your boundary-heavy "sensible" version is a very small part of human…

Also, the suggestion that John Lennon's 'Imagine' was written before the rise of the 'modern nation-state' is complete and absolute rubbish. By the time John Lennon wrote that incredibly asinine song, India and Pakistan had already clashed at least three times over Kashmir. Israel had already fought wars against the surrounding countries five times, and the Soviet Union had already violently annexed many of its neigh…

> Also, the suggestion that John Lennon's 'Imagine' was written before the rise of the 'modern nation-state' is complete and absolute rubbish.

When did I say that? I said he said in an interview that ideas of another time inspired that particular line. Not that he lived to see such a time or that 1971 was such a time. I wasn't too shocked at your previous reply even if I disagree, but now you are attributing insane comments to me. Slow down. Relax.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#103

Post by jfengel »

sprafa wrote: post #16
jfengel wrote: post #14

Honestly, John, you were responsible for a massive hit Broadway musical, one that's entirely acceptable to the out-of-towners after their visit to Times Square. You didn't "become respectable". You sold out. Getting gross stuff shown in a modern art museum is hardly an accomplishment. Manzoni did his "canned poop" thing in 1961. You're gonna have to try a lot harder than clips from porn movies. Pink Flamingos is stil…

Meh. Why so negative? A man makes money after doing some transgressive things in the past that are considered iconic. Sell out? Really?

I don't mind him making money. I mind the "Oh, poor me, I used to be so outre" tone of his article.

I'm glad he got rich. That's cool. Bawlmer kid makes good. But the article feels like flaunting it, without providing either insight or introspection.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#104

Post by ulisesrmzroche »

mruts wrote: post #46
tombert wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Youtube didn't "ban" "anything people complain about", they just demonetized it and stopped recommending it as frequently. Still not great, but they're not taking your soapbox away, they're just not paying as much for it. What would you suggest companies like Cloudflare do exactly? There have been talks of 8chan being accessory to literal terrorism; do you think that they really want to be hosting that stuff? Isn't i…

Youtube has removed many videos pushing subversive views[1]. Do I agree with these views (maybe I do, I haven't seen the videos, but I doubt it), no. But that's beside the point. And you're right, youtube and 8chan don't want to be hosting that stuff. If I had the power I would like to think I would act differently, but I understand that the teleological purpose of a company is to make money and if I was in a similar…

There ain’t no right to live without tyranny or oppression. Literally no right to do anything except what society says.

This is just you and your libertarian sentimentalism.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#105

Post by 4ntonius8lock »

satori99 wrote: post #70
4ntonius8lock wrote: post #30

"First the establishment will ignore you; then they laugh at you; then they crack down on you and then you become part of the establishment." Someone I'm glad everything he represents is now accepted. I remember watching Pink Flamingos in the early 2000s when I was discovering cinematography and understanding the industry and it's evolution. It has shock value, but it was deeper than that. When I saw his film, it rem…

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi (Maybe?)

No, it wasn't his quote (at least not sourced)

Tons of people have attributed it to him though.

Personally, if I don't have the book and page of a quote, I don't source it.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#106

Post by slg »

rxhernandez wrote: post #90
slg wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The controversy wasn't the ethnicity of the character, it was that the character was portrayed in a stereotypical manner by a white guy no less. It is basically the audio equivalent of blackface. The Simpsons debuted 30 years ago this year and there are plenty of 30 year old comedies that are extremely objectionable by current standards. It isn't always fair to criticize that comedy since it is important to always ju…

> isn't always fair to criticize that comedy since it is important to always judge art in the context in which it was originally created. I strongly disagree. I very much remember how my dad (an immigrant to the US) felt about it when he saw the Simpsons in the 90s; I remember how obvious the racism was when he pointed it out. Just because you were oblivious to how it made people feel doesn't mean it didn't make peop…

I did start that quote with "isn't always" meaning there are certain situations in which I agree with you. However, I think intent has to play a factor when judging comedy like this. It is not just intent to insult that is inappropriate, but knowledge that your comedy would insult and doing it anyway even if that isn't the primary intent. I think a lot of people were just ignorant of the repercussions of their jokes. That doesn't make those jokes acceptable today, but I have a hard time judging them retroactively like that. If we judge everyone by that standard, basically anyone born before 1995 is an awful person in one way or another.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#107

Post by weberc2 »

rxhernandez wrote: post #90
slg wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The controversy wasn't the ethnicity of the character, it was that the character was portrayed in a stereotypical manner by a white guy no less. It is basically the audio equivalent of blackface. The Simpsons debuted 30 years ago this year and there are plenty of 30 year old comedies that are extremely objectionable by current standards. It isn't always fair to criticize that comedy since it is important to always ju…

> isn't always fair to criticize that comedy since it is important to always judge art in the context in which it was originally created. I strongly disagree. I very much remember how my dad (an immigrant to the US) felt about it when he saw the Simpsons in the 90s; I remember how obvious the racism was when he pointed it out. Just because you were oblivious to how it made people feel doesn't mean it didn't make peop…

The problem is that our culture doesn't really agree on whether it's the responsibility of the speaker to avoid offense or the listener to "suck it up" or whether it varies based on the relative identities of the speaker and listener in a hierarchy of identities. I'm fine with expecting courteous speakers and charitable listeners, but running it through an identity matrix is inherently racist (and/or sexist, and/or etc).

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#108

Post by whatshisface »

croon wrote: post #98
cm2187 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a pro-Trump statue. That would reliably get you kicked out of every art gallery.

Shocking can become respectable in the future. Shockingly stupid can't.

50 years ago they were saying the same thing about "shockingly vulgar." Maybe culture will go in a direction you don't support, and you will end up as one of the nay-saying voices lending a counter-cultural air to the stupidadaists.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#109

Post by lifeisstillgood »

cgh wrote: post #37
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #9

Radical is merely common sense, thirty years early. I still want to turn Serial Mom into a Netflix series

This is one of those "I want to subscribe to your newsletter" comments.

I have just been planning on setting up a newsletter - just got the "idea" right. So thank you - a nice comment online at just the right time - you've put a smile on a wrinkly old face :-)

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#110

Post by ajxs »

asveikau wrote: post #102
ajxs wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the suggestion that John Lennon's 'Imagine' was written before the rise of the 'modern nation-state' is complete and absolute rubbish. By the time John Lennon wrote that incredibly asinine song, India and Pakistan had already clashed at least three times over Kashmir. Israel had already fought wars against the surrounding countries five times, and the Soviet Union had already violently annexed many of its neigh…

> Also, the suggestion that John Lennon's 'Imagine' was written before the rise of the 'modern nation-state' is complete and absolute rubbish. When did I say that? I said he said in an interview that ideas of another time inspired that particular line. Not that he lived to see such a time or that 1971 was such a time. I wasn't too shocked at your previous reply even if I disagree, but now you are attributing insane c…

Perhaps I misread your initial comment, I posted it quite late. My apologies, I'm willing to delete my last post there for the sake of remaining civil if that helps.
Post reply on HN