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Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

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Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#101

Post by CogitoCogito »

notwumao wrote: post #89
CogitoCogito wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask you why you are against the protests? Also would you support the CCP making a public statement taking a step back and agreeing to listen to the protesters' concerns?

Regarding the second question, I felt humiliated by the protestors' vandalism on the Chinese flag and emblem, which are symbols of our national identity. If my government ended up making concessions to the protestors' demand, it would be a hard pill for me to swallow.

I’m sure if concessions were made, the protesters probably wouldn’t be as likely to do such things. Would you be willing to meet them in the middle?

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#102

Post by icebraining »

notwumao wrote: post #89
CogitoCogito wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask you why you are against the protests? Also would you support the CCP making a public statement taking a step back and agreeing to listen to the protesters' concerns?

Regarding the second question, I felt humiliated by the protestors' vandalism on the Chinese flag and emblem, which are symbols of our national identity. If my government ended up making concessions to the protestors' demand, it would be a hard pill for me to swallow.

You'll never get perfect behaviour from even a military, let alone a barely cohesive group of random protestors. Requiring that for allowing concessions is just pretence.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#103

Post by yorwba »

mushufasa wrote: post #58
ninedays wrote: post #6

"Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here." People are fed up about how the system works and about their life and the life of people they know. They want things to be "better" without having to clearly define and write a 167 page law that will probably not benefit them. People are expressing their dissatisfaction and IMHO that's a valid justification for protesters and good enough for me.

They have very specific "5 demands" 1. no extradition to china 2. retract characterization of protests as riots 3. exonerate arrested protestors 4. investigate police misconduct 5. resignation of the PRC-appointed executive and... democracy they are literally protesting for democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_anti-extraditio...

> they are literally protesting for democracy

Protests don't achieve democracy, voting does. If all participants in the recent protests were willing to volunteer, printing a few million ballots and distributing them to improvised polling stations wouldn't be insurmountable. The Hong Kong Identity Card means that voter ID can be implemented without access to government records, simply by assigning a range of ID numbers to each polling station. The only drawback is that they'd need to somehow record who already cast their vote, which could be abused by the government to crack down on participants if they decide to ignore the outcome.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#104

Post by cattlefarmer »

willis936 wrote: post #77
kitsune_ wrote: post #49

I don't think this will end well, the more this drags on, the more violent it will probably become. At some point the state will probably have a pretty good excuse to declare martial law and enforce order by military means, ultimately it might fasten the integration of Hong Kong into the PRC instead of delaying it.

You’re implying that the people should just lay down and take it? They are risking their lives for their principles and they are doing it the right way.

A pragmatist would lay down and take it, while preparing to emigrate out of HK as soon as possible.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#105

Post by tluyben2 »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #100
tluyben2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cannot speak for OP but my Chinese mainland friends do not condone of the protests because they simply do not want to rock the boat in any way. Just live life, make money (preferably lots of it, so expensive brands can be bought), raise a family, help your neighbor. Let the gov run the country and keep your interests and discussions out of it. They believe HK will be a better, easier, more organized and more peaceful…

But it’s the CCP that’s been pushing changes. If they just stopped pushing for changes between Hong Kong and the mainland, they would largely (if not entirely) placate the protesters. The CCP is the one rocking the boat!

Yep, but that is not what mainlanders think. Well, the ones I know. Very small group of well-off engineers. I have not been to HK for a few months now but I have friends in both camps. I am pro HK (but I am western so).

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#106

Post by icebraining »

oraphalous wrote: post #67
Multicomp wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In response to the protests, the government line has been to continue to stall and to claim that everything happening in Hong Kong is magically just the result of foreign interference by actors like the CIA, that way they don't have to actually listen to their own people, they can just plug their ears and say lalalalala the CIA did it all. This comment appears to support that general narrative, so I suspect people ar…

How are the ringleaders surviving? Not a lot of bank to made protesting I suspect. I resent the claim tho that my comment supports the "general narrative" - I explicitly disavow the Chinese regime as authoritarian that "deserves comeuppance". I'll add here that I think the protesters have a genuine cause that deserves support. I do, however, think that the CIA, the U.S. and the west generally - doesn't actually give…

Eh, I don't doubt the US is helping the protestors, but surviving is not really a problem when you're the leader of a mass protest. You'll have plenty of followers willing to give you the necessities of life. If you read the histories of revolutionary leaders, they often lived for years from the support of regular people.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#107

Post by uranusjr »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #100
tluyben2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cannot speak for OP but my Chinese mainland friends do not condone of the protests because they simply do not want to rock the boat in any way. Just live life, make money (preferably lots of it, so expensive brands can be bought), raise a family, help your neighbor. Let the gov run the country and keep your interests and discussions out of it. They believe HK will be a better, easier, more organized and more peaceful…

But it’s the CCP that’s been pushing changes. If they just stopped pushing for changes between Hong Kong and the mainland, they would largely (if not entirely) placate the protesters. The CCP is the one rocking the boat!

It depends on your analogy. Mainland Chinese “learned from experience” that the CCP is the sea (i.e. out of control of people), not part of the boat.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#108

Post by baybal2 »

vijucat wrote: post #68

Complicating the nature of these protests is that the 5 overt demands put forth by protestors (all related to the Extradition Bill) do not reflect a large cause of the latent / tacit discontent: the inability of youngsters to buy a home and raise a family due to collusion between property developers and government to restrict land supply. This author has stated the problem better than I can: https://www.scmp.com/comm…

I'm afraid that this argument is just a diversionary manoeuvre tying to shift the narrative. I do feel it is being planted by pro-BJ side, to allow Beijing to waltz in and say "Apartments for everyone, now go home"

It feels manufactured — the ones rioting are the higher middle classes, who despite astronomical real estate prices can still survive somehow, not the homeless youth living in McDonaldses.

To provide some context to outsiders: housing to HK is pretty much like the healthcare is to America. Patently broken, but is pretty much a part of the class identity.

Higher ups on the social ladder don't mind much to continue to "bite the cactus," and some even think of it as something normal, even actively trying to subvert efforts to fix the situation.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#109

Post by cltsang »

jddj wrote: post #99
notwumao wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the second question, I felt humiliated by the protestors' vandalism on the Chinese flag and emblem, which are symbols of our national identity. If my government ended up making concessions to the protestors' demand, it would be a hard pill for me to swallow.

This got me thinking about my own situation. I've been living abroad in various places for a few years now, and I feel like if someone were to vandalise the flag of my home country in an act of protest I don't think it would trigger much of an emotional response in me at all. No more, probably, than someone vandalising the flag of my sports team (that's to say, not much). I wonder where this emotional attachment to t…

You are not alone in this. The country flag itself does not have any true meaning other than representing the country. To the people from mainland China, it may symbolise launching rocket to fly round the moon, the 2nd largest economy, etc., but to the people in Hong Kong, it may mean uighur genocide, tiananmen massacre, years of WTO rules violations, etc..

However people grew up in China are trained to be punished and even disappeared when they speak or act against the chinese official rhetoric, where as being patriotic in the officially approved ways is rewarding.

This extends to them enjoying watching people get punished and disappeared when they speak or act against the chinese official rhetoric. It's immoral and irrational, but it's also human nature. These brainwashing started even before they have the ability to reason.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#110

Post by willis936 »

cattlefarmer wrote: post #104
willis936 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re implying that the people should just lay down and take it? They are risking their lives for their principles and they are doing it the right way.

A pragmatist would lay down and take it, while preparing to emigrate out of HK as soon as possible.

I don’t speak for the people of Hong Kong, but I could imagine many people caring deeply about a place that is considered home, with a specific culture and set of people.
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