Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#101

Post by Supermancho » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 5:26 AM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #53

mirimir wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Sole proprietorships and individual workers have similar market power. But without unions, workers have virtually no market power vs corporations (and partnerships, for that matter). I do agree that both corporations and unions ought to be regulated by antitrust law.

Market power is irrevelant to workers being able to fetch the market rate for their labor. Corporations compete with each other for a limited pool of labor. There is no generalized class conflict between corporations and workers in a free market. Competition happens just as much within classes as between them. Ultimately that results in the wages offered being determined by the underlying market forces of supply and…

> Market power is irrevelant to workers being able to fetch the market rate for their labor.

If the market consists of few actors, you get collusion to depress wages and opportunity (in tech you had https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage...) but it exists across a number of industries. Your assertion assumes only good actors, which is not commensurate with reality.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#102

Post by ars » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 5:27 AM UTC

H8crilA wrote: post #17

wrong_variable wrote: post #5

Organized labor was extremely problematic for capital since WW2. The new dealers ( FDR, Truman ) gave organized labor tremendous power because without it the USA would probably have had a big communist party. They also knew the deflationary period of the 1930s lead to the rise of fascism and nationalism in Europe. So the petty greed of capital was scarified at the altar to maintain peace. They were also willing to sa…

Uhm, modern Germany? Many companies have labor representatives on board (for example Volkswagen). The country is just fine. > They were also willing to sacrifice growth to maintain peace. Who would do such a thing! We should get back to my grandfather times, he was happy because he was a child, and children did not only get a few potatoes to eat per day, but also a little bit of oil with it. Also I suppose it's kind…

European style unions are not the same as American ones, despite the same name.

One huge difference is there can only be a single union at an American company, while with the European style an employee can pick which to chose from.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#103

Post by vinay_ys » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 5:47 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #72

icxa wrote: post #4

Absurdity of this video aside, but I just wish there was room in today's political environment to discuss pros and cons to unions and non-unions. There are some pretty good examples of unions being corrupt, there are examples where unions work. There are examples where like Amazon says, having a direct relationship with your employer is the best. Nuance is gone which is the biggest loss.

Also different kinds of unions. For example, American style “union shops” are uncommon in Europe, and illegal in some EU countries.

I saw a Youtube video of an American political campaign event where someone from Europe ask a question about unions and pretty much saying that American unions are weak compared to the ones in Europe. Is this true? How are the unions in Europe? Or any other place?

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#104

Post by vinay_ys » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 5:52 AM UTC

ken wrote: post #55

toofy wrote: post #14

There was a Home Depot anti-union video floating around yesterday. [1] What really struck me is how much they remind me of the cringey anti-drug videos we used to watch in like middle school, “If you see a suspicious person smoking something that looks like a cigarette but smells funny, cross the street to get away. They may offer you a joint for free to get you hooked. If you smoke that joint, before you know it the…

Even if I didn't know anything about unions before, the mere fact that all these mega-corps are spending the money to make anti-union videos would seem awfully suspicious. Why would companies have anything to fear, if unions were really so terrible for workers? These anti-union videos are indeed reminiscent of the anti-drug videos. Drugs are unhealthy, expensive, and illegal -- so DARE should be shooting fish in a ba…

These videos have definitely made a lot of people curious about unions.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#105

Post by Supermancho » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 5:53 AM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #52

mirimir wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that the legality of unions in the US depends on an exception in antitrust law. But it's also true that corporations depend on state-backed exceptions to common law. As such, corporations were generally illegal in the US until the late 1800s. There was an exception for corporations serving the public interest. Initially for building canals and railroads. But in the late 1800s, a series of Supreme Court opin…

Unions depend not just on an exemption from anti-trust law, which in itsef is an anti-market intervention, but on state-imposed restrictions on businesses to give unions a monopoly over their workforces. It's an extreme disruption in the economy, with all predictable consequences for productivity. As for corporations and common law, that's a relatively minor deviation from the free market that would be almost entirel…

> state-imposed restrictions on businesses to give unions a monopoly over their workforces

That's not how all unions work. That is how the worst ones are implemented in the US, imo. eg govt unions, teacher's union, police union, NRLCA vs UFCW or Airline unions (eg https://www.swamedia.com/pages/contracts)

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#106

Post by Animats » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:07 AM UTC

jrheard wrote: post #94

Animats wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So little is said about unions today. There was a time when newspapers had a "union beat", and you'd read about who was elected head of the UAW local and how the Steelworkers negotiations were going. It's been a long time since WCFL radio, "The Voice of Labor in Chicago". Few people know how unions work any more. They vary as much as companies do. Some are top down, some are bottom up. Some run their own insurance an…

What's a good way to learn more about the history and function and current status of unions? Are there any good books/resources that aren't particularly biased toward one side or the other?

It's harder than I expected. Try: [1], which is a study of how unions have interacted with the gig economy. (Mechanical Turk workers had an organization, Dynamo. Last update on their web site was 4 years ago, though.)

Teen Vogue (which has better content than the name would suggest) has a good article.[2]

[1] http://rooseveltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Mil...

[2] https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-a-labor-union-is-and-ho...

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#107

Post by maximente » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:22 AM UTC

vinay_ys wrote: post #103

rayiner wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also different kinds of unions. For example, American style “union shops” are uncommon in Europe, and illegal in some EU countries.

I saw a Youtube video of an American political campaign event where someone from Europe ask a question about unions and pretty much saying that American unions are weak compared to the ones in Europe. Is this true? How are the unions in Europe? Or any other place?

without writing a thesis, here are some thoughts:

- US is/was about 100 years behind european labor movement (germany, sweden, etc. started mid 19th century; US not until 1935 Wagner Act)

- ghent system - in scandanavian countries, unions provide most unemployment benefits, not .gov. you can imagine this leads to large union membership

- americans lost manufacturing/blue collar ("union" jobs) en masse as white collar jobs rose, whereas trade skills are still a thing in countries like Germany with their sort of parallel university system for trades

- there is probably a relationship between strong social welfare and union membership, though directionality isn't clear - perhaps large % of union membership enables more tolerance towards social welfare, or perhaps social welfare allows people to not worry about retaliation from attempting unionization, or ..

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#108

Post by applecrazy » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:44 AM UTC

vinay_ys wrote: post #104

ken wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if I didn't know anything about unions before, the mere fact that all these mega-corps are spending the money to make anti-union videos would seem awfully suspicious. Why would companies have anything to fear, if unions were really so terrible for workers? These anti-union videos are indeed reminiscent of the anti-drug videos. Drugs are unhealthy, expensive, and illegal -- so DARE should be shooting fish in a ba…

These videos have definitely made a lot of people curious about unions.

It’s the Streisand Effect all over again.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#109

Post by cambalache » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:49 AM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #58

cambalache wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah you mean,like Hollywood.

(copy-pasting) I'd argue it's only because the nature of film making - with many short-lived independent productions - doesn't give unionized work units the monopoly control they would have in large stable production facilities, like factories, and moreover, due to being cultural work, is very difficult to outsource. For a time all major industrial sectors were dominated by unions. It resulted in America losing its m…

And yet Germany (among others) an industrial powerhouse full of innovation has a pretty strong union sector.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#110

Post by cambalache » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:58 AM UTC

jart wrote: post #74

cambalache wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not only wages, almost every single work right has been won by sweat and blood of the organized workers. 8 hours working day, 2 days off a week, vacation time, pregnancy leave, medical insurance, etc, etc. None of them was implemented as result of the benevolence of the dominant classes.

Is the pen mightier than sweat and blood? Upton Sinclair had a lot of impact, just sitting behind a desk, writing books about how nasty factories can be. Shabbat is basically two days with modern sleep schedules. Insurance started off as perks to attract top-tier. Progress for workers comes from many places.

What are you talking about? Unions are a 19th century European (mostly British) invention. Sinclair is a 20th century US writer, 100 years before him there were already strikes all over the world requesting better working conditions.