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Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

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Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#101
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck convincing US and EU residents to take a significant economic hit in the name of standing on principle against censorship that doesn't affect them.

The EU doesn't even have free speech to begin with[] and it doesn't seem like it bothers many people. [] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr...

American-style "Free speech" is incompatible with the right-to-be-forgotten, privacy[1] and other ideals that Europeans give primacy. Someone smarter than I am once summarized American freedoms as "Freedom to _", and European ones as "Freedom from _"

1. IIRC, it is illegal for newspapers publish arrestee's full names in Germany to protect their privacy - assumption of innocence and all that. This law wouldn't hold in the US as it infringes on publishers 1A rights

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#102

To me, this feels like an area Uncle Sam and the EU need to get involved in. Declare all censorship or need to comply with the Great Firewall to be a trade barrier, freeze out all Chinese tech companies on that basis, and find a way to strongly discourage American and European companies from in any way enabling it.

Good luck convincing US and EU residents to take a significant economic hit in the name of standing on principle against censorship that doesn't affect them.

Good luck convincing US and EU residents to take a significant economic hit in the name of standing on principle against censorship that doesn't affect them.

It depends. There are plenty of people who willingly pay more for non-Chinese goods when they can. The problem is that they often have no choice in the matter because so much is made in China.

There are lots of small manufacturing businesses new and old all across the country that are thriving because of where their stuff is made. The problem is that they can't make goods in large enough quantities to be carried in the national chain stores, so it's mostly online and word-of-mouth.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#103

To me, this feels like an area Uncle Sam and the EU need to get involved in. Declare all censorship or need to comply with the Great Firewall to be a trade barrier, freeze out all Chinese tech companies on that basis, and find a way to strongly discourage American and European companies from in any way enabling it.

That's nice and all, but the reality is that these multinational companies actively and willingly accept these terms (and more!) in order to exploit Chinese labor. The rhetoric about IP and censorship is all bark, no bite because the people at the top knew exactly what they signed up for.

Right. AFAIK, China is unlike Japan, UK, or USA. To operate with similar economic structure and policies will be suicide to a country as big as China where millions of people are still farmers and villagers and way under poverty level. We have to look at competition too. It seems China wants to develop a mature marketplace, so native companies have room to compete with the outside world. Else, there wouldn't be a Baidu, Youku, or JD.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#104
Good.

Some argue this is just Google following local laws. I say that being legal != being moral and helping the government of China censor and track citizens is not a moral position, law be damned. The amount of internal resistance this got is good evidence of this project not being consistent with the values of most of the people who work there.

The fact that leadership tried to hide this project, keep it secret and deny its existence is... disappointing.

Then again, I already had the opinion that Sundar is the most overpaid CEO in the world.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#105
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nice and all, but the reality is that these multinational companies actively and willingly accept these terms (and more!) in order to exploit Chinese labor. The rhetoric about IP and censorship is all bark, no bite because the people at the top knew exactly what they signed up for.

Companies foreign to China cooperate with the local government for another reason also: they want access to Chinese customers. If Google were to refuse the Chinese terms of business, they would be barred from doing business with the largest population in the world. And the climate over there is that their government risks little political capital in banning non-compliant firms.

Forgoing 18% of a market in order to uphold bedrock principles seems like a worthy trade.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#106
post #54
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the arguments at the time when dragonfly was leaked, it was brought up that there is censorship, though in a different form, already in the EU. Be it right to be forgotten, or filtering of information related to things unsavory to the past of any given country in the EU. Then the US and EU both have censorship around things protected by law. So you can sue people to take down slanderous material, or material tha…

Right to be forgotten gives the individual the right to have his data removed from permanent storage by companies, for whatever purpose: not sure how it relates even remotely with censorship. " filtering of information related to things unsavory to the past of any given country in the EU." Some specific reference to some EU government forcing companies to remove controversial information about their countries' past w…

It's my understanding that Nazi stuff is prohibited in various ways in Germany and France.

I watched a movie recently (though not a recent movie) that had a scene with some Nazi stuff in the background of one scene. The IMDB trivia notes for the film stated that the scene was removed when it was released in Germany.

(If I can remember the film, I'll edit this comment.)

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#107
post #40
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you want Google to say? "I’m not sure I can say this more clearly: we’re not in cahoots with the NSA and there’s is no government program that Google participates in that allows the kind of access that the media originally reported. Note that I say “originally” because you’ll see that many of those original sources corrected their articles after it became clear that the PRISM slides were not accurate. Now,…

Either Ed Snowden is lying, or Google is.

Or he wasn't lying, but didn't himself have fully accurate information. Just like a big organization, there may have been a lot of work (and slides generated) on a project that was ultimately killed/changed significantly.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#108
post #44

To me, this feels like an area Uncle Sam and the EU need to get involved in. Declare all censorship or need to comply with the Great Firewall to be a trade barrier, freeze out all Chinese tech companies on that basis, and find a way to strongly discourage American and European companies from in any way enabling it.

From the arguments at the time when dragonfly was leaked, it was brought up that there is censorship, though in a different form, already in the EU. Be it right to be forgotten, or filtering of information related to things unsavory to the past of any given country in the EU. Then the US and EU both have censorship around things protected by law. So you can sue people to take down slanderous material, or material tha…

You're getting a lot of flack for this comment, but I think it's a reasonable way of looking at the problem. In the United States, we have strong cultural conceptions about what are acceptable reasons for the government and companies to forcably suppress information (copyright violations, "terrorist" content, white supremacy, child pornography) and what aren't (political dissidence, social stability, insults, most other porn). Culturally, the Chinese have about the same attitude towards political dissidence that we have towards terrorist recruiting content, and for many of the same reasons. Historically, they have seen how political turmoil, if allowed to recruit, can hurt and kill people just how we have seen that terrorism can do the same.

Similarly, the American attitude towards copyright, trademark, and patent laws probably seems ridiculous and borderline unethical to Chinese companies looking to do business here. They seem (from the outside) to have no problem with a phone manufacturer calling itself "Applle" to piggyback on Apple's brand, but that is very illegal under American laws. Similarly, the amount of automatic filtering YouTube and other video hosts have to do under DMCA might block as much content as Chinese political auto-filtering does, although I would love to see more analysis of that.

Being from an American cultural background myself, I have an obvious set of intuitions about which of these are reasonable and which are ridiculous, but I find it hard to make a clear argument about why.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#109
post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored.

So what? That does not make censorship morally acceptable. This would be the same as saying that using slave labor is ok, if you do it in a country that already accepts slavery anyway, and you are treating you slaves better.

> And by surfacing better information for queries, it can also help people finding what they want for things that are not censored.

Once the state is performing censorship there is no such thing as "better information". If all information is filtered by the government, then all information is suspicious.

> but do consider how lives of hundreds of millions of people will be affected by your actions/inactions.

I have profound sympathy for the victims of authoritarian regimes, and I absolutely do not believe that the way to help them is to collaborate with the very system that oppresses them. Pretending otherwise sounds like Newspeak to me.

> I know some people prefer to stick their noses up and hold what they perceive as the moral high ground

Maybe some people are like that, but this is unimportant. The important thing is this: you have to put your own oxygen mask on before helping others. If we in the west allow our companies to collaborate with systems that hold values that are repugnant to our own, then we will become like those systems, not the other way around. There will be nowhere to hide. No thank you.

Let's not be naive: say what you want about the Chinese government, but they are not imbeciles. If they did not perceive Dragonfly as something that would help them maintain their repressive apparatus, they would not allow it.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#110

To me, this feels like an area Uncle Sam and the EU need to get involved in. Declare all censorship or need to comply with the Great Firewall to be a trade barrier, freeze out all Chinese tech companies on that basis, and find a way to strongly discourage American and European companies from in any way enabling it.

Trade barrier? Since when services offered through the web are paying taxes in the places where they are rendering their services. If anything, expect a lot more governments to wisen up, like the US did with Amazon and taxes, and create these barriers to have people actually play by local rules. That I don't agree with Chinese rules is one thing but it is their country.

But let's be perfectly clear that the Chinese did this out of censorship and the trade part happened to be a side-effect.

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