Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions • Hacker News Board

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#101

Post by sigstoat » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

ivl wrote: post #75

eswat wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the specific industry in tech. Do programmers in general tech startups have enough power? I’d say yes too. Do programmers in the gaming industry have enough power? Definitely not.

The gaming industry has an interesting problem: a lot of fresh college grads that want to work on games because they are passionate about games. In that case, I'm unsure of how unionizing would help much, as publishers could simply invest in games from non-union shops, and happily abandon the studios that are unionized.

> In that case, I'm unsure of how unionizing would help much, as publishers could simply invest in games from non-union shops, and happily abandon the studios that are unionized.

and game development work is probably the most trivial software development to move to foreign jurisdictions. unless the union promoters would like video game tariffs.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#102

Post by docker_up » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

rexpop wrote: post #92

docker_up wrote: post #44

Tech unions are a way for bureaucrats to take a tax off the backs of hard working tech workers with no benefits. I am well off, have a flexible work life balance, and I enjoy my job. There is nothing that a union would bring to the table for me. If there was a union in Silicon Valley in the early 80s, we would be no where close to where we are today. Look at the stark difference between a Silicon Valley worker vs som…

[flagged]

I believe people are different and there needs to be differentiation between those that are more skilled than those that are less skilled. I support that more skilled people getting paid more than those that are less skilled. I think it's fundamentally fair.

In Silicon Valley, most tech jobs are not nooses around anyone's neck. And that's a great environment to live in that would have been ruined by unions. In fact, things like progress would have been thwarted by greedy unions that slow everyone down.

I don't believe that seniority deserves more rewards than younger people. I believe the best person should win. If I can't compete anymore, I'm okay with being out of a job. As I hit 50, I'm aware that my skills are getting out of date but it's fair. I would rather live in a fair environment where I'm out of a job because I'm not as skilled than others rather live in a blunted, slow, environment where union execs make money off my back for decades and decades.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#103

Post by FrozenTuna » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #81

malvosenior wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never in 20+ years of experience seen a company dump high performing engineers just to lower costs. It's those very engineers that engendered the success the company enjoys. I have seen good teams cut but that's only when macro issues have made it necessary.

You must have worked at places with exceedingly good management, or not at startups.

If a company has experienced both boom times and recessive economic times, I think its "startup" status is arguable, depending on a few other factors.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#104

Post by Apocryphon » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

noego wrote: post #26

This is going to be a unpopular opinion. I think a tech union would likely be good for the average tech worker - and bad for absolutely everyone else, broader society included. Cartels and price-fixing agreements are extremely lucrative, which is why they were commonplace until outlawed by antitrust legislation, and why cartels like OPEC still operate today. Unions and collective bargaining are no different. Unions a…

This comment is worth discussing about because it actually criticizes the macroeconomic effects of unions, not just another "well I don't need a union and I don't want to be stuck paying dues" personal complaint. It's an interesting point for union proponents to debate, and perhaps a next-gen tech union should try to address the concerns.

Another solution to add to the ones you mentioned can be the promotion of founding tech companies run as worker cooperatives, similar to Mondragon in Spain. If tech companies leadership will flirt with anti-hierarchial management fads like flat organizations and holocracy, why not putting their equity where their mouth is and allowing the workers themselves to own the means of production?

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#105

Post by paxys » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

lallysingh wrote: post #31

dawhizkid wrote: post #8

Biggest question is if a union or union-like system makes sense in companies where the average tenure is ~2-3 years mostly due to employee choice.

Why do they leave? Are those reasons addressable by a union?

Why does it need to be addressed? Why can't switching employers every few years be seen as a good (or at least normal) thing?

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#106

Post by crimsonalucard » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #85

crimsonalucard wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Startup idea: an app for employees to organize anonymously. Not a legal union. But an app that can send to an employer this message: "95% of your employees disagree with this issue" Basically centralized communication through voting without the need for union bureaucracy. The app can optionally take the next step and help employees become a legal union but before that it can function as basically anonymous Slack with…

So a Blind or Glassdoor that actually serves the needs of workers within a company.

2 issues have to be solved to get this to work. The app and idea itself is trivial.

First I need a full updated roster of employees of a company to confirm that an anonymous user is actually an employee of said company. Not sure how to do this in a fully secure and updated way.

Second user engagement. If I can figure out how to get one full company to use this as aggressively as they use slack, we'd be good to go to launch this in other companies.

Both are hard questions that I'm not sure how to answer or execute.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#107

Post by paxys » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 6:08 PM UTC

moorhosj wrote: post #42

mawburn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its employee choice. People get bored, they get tired of processes, and there are plenty of companies willing to hire them that will allow them to try something new, do something different, and deal with different processes.

Unions could help in each of these case, so you haven't answered the question or provided any evidence.

There is no help needed. People are perfectly happy switching employers, and companies are perfectly happy paying to get or retain talent. This ecosystem has made Silicon Valley what it is today.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#108

Post by Animats » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 6:10 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #61

ahelwer wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are run so they suck as many profits out of the company as possible during the boom times, then "cut costs" (aka dump overboard the workers who created those profits) at the slightest change of the economic winds. Unions change that equation; corporations won't be able to run that strategy, and will maintain a cushion to get through the inevitable downturn.

I have never in 20+ years of experience seen a company dump high performing engineers just to lower costs. It's those very engineers that engendered the success the company enjoys. I have seen good teams cut but that's only when macro issues have made it necessary.

IBM since 2000. HP since Fiorina.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#109

Post by dlkf » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #43

negamax wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will share my thoughts. Happy to be challenged and discuss more. I think instead of looking for a past era solution we should look for a completely new solution set. Why not work on creating open systems. May be instead of getting a leverage over employers, tech people should contribute and create parallel systems. Which instead of creating monopolies help anyone challenge the status quo easily. I think it already…

The idea that unions exist only to get a larger slice of the static profits pie is, itself, a zero-sum view :) When employees feel represented and empowered, when we have real ownership in the company - not just a few thousand $ in stock grants while billions are spent on dividends/stock buybacks, but an actual seat at the table where decision are made - then we want the company to succeed. We will work harder and be…

Do you have any supporting examples?

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#110

Post by Apocryphon » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 6:16 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #106

Apocryphon wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a Blind or Glassdoor that actually serves the needs of workers within a company.

2 issues have to be solved to get this to work. The app and idea itself is trivial. First I need a full updated roster of employees of a company to confirm that an anonymous user is actually an employee of said company. Not sure how to do this in a fully secure and updated way. Second user engagement. If I can figure out how to get one full company to use this as aggressively as they use slack, we'd be good to go to…

Blind already solves the first by mandating you use your company email to register. Of course, that means privacy is paramount, and you'd have to prevent situations where say management floods your system with dummy accounts. But that's at least a starting point.

The second point is definitely important. The problem too with having an anonymized place where users can vent and gossip, is that it can quickly become a toxic dump of FUD, similar to how Blind is now. And the smaller the organization is, the less likely people will want to speak out, for fear their anonymous words will be traced back to them.