Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent artists • Hacker News Board

Re: Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent artists

#101

Post by anoncake » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #90

CaptainZapp wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If stringent government regulation got you here, maybe it will be less of that, not more, that gets you out. Yeah, we see how fantastically that one worked with the Boeing corporation and their newest flagship plane, The 737MAX.

Gotta love the uber-intellectual reply that any valid criticism of European regulation brings: "but WHATABOUT " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

It's not unrelated, it demonstrates that while unregulated markets may be a nice idea in theory, they just don't work in practice. Not that an analogy were necessary. The unregulated ad industry itself shows that an unregulated ad industry is a bad idea.

Re: Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent artists

#102

Post by criley2 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

jonathanstrange wrote: post #95

criley2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I literally cannot imagine supporting monopolies/oligopolies over healthy competition. There really is more than just an ocean between America and Europe, the culture is so dramatically different. How can one honestly believe that a Google data monopoly is better for privacy and innovation? It seems to fly in the face of every lesson learned by every monopoly in history.

Although I generally agree with your sentiment, please don't forget that, unlike the US, the EU also has antitrust and anticartel laws with teeth and has applied them in the past against large quasi-monopolists like Microsoft and Google.

With all due respect, America has a long history of busting monopolies, and while we haven't gone on a busting spree this generation, we're awfully close to doing the one thing that Europe would never, ever be able to accomplish: Break up companies like Google and Facebook. (As this thread demonstrates, Europeans would potentially be against us doing so, and would be pro-monopoly?)

I actually think the Google reorganization under Alphabet was done in no small part to prepare for anti-trust activity and the breakup of the Google monster.

Question because I don't know European anti-cartel history, do European regulators have a history of big bust-ups like Ma Bell?

It seems like Europeans just try fining them and letting them be.

Re: Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent artists

#103

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:13 PM UTC

blfr wrote: post #76

TeMPOraL wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might actually turn out for the better. Google is a big target; they can't fly under the radar. As for demolishing small businesses, small businesses aren't an universal, unquestionable good. In this particular case, we need less adtech business in general. It's like dumping toxic waste into rivers - not only lots of small polluters aren't better than few big ones, the desirable thing is just having less polluters…

Yes, monopolies might actually turn out for the better. I can't really think of an example but in principle why not, maybe this time it will be an enlightened monopoly.

My point was more along the lines: you let Google scoop up all the adtech business and then kill Google. Or at least its adtech activities in Europe. Since the territory is already unsustaining for small adtech businesses, they won't rise back up when Google's monopoly is out of the picture. No more adtech companies in Europe, mission accomplished.

Re: Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent artists

#104

Post by macinjosh » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:13 PM UTC

Wasn't Spotify just complaining that Apple's App Store policies hurts consumers? The shoe seems to be on the other foot now. This policy hurts both independent artists and consumers. Not to mention this policy stems from unnecessary government regulations that benefit only large players in the music industry.

Re: Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent artists

#105

Post by anoncake » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:13 PM UTC

beckler wrote: post #68

snowwolf wrote: post #62

I’m not familiar with the process, but could there also have been a fraud aspect (not copyright) to this that wasn’t worth the effort required to prevent? Upload “songs”, generate lots of listens, get paid.

Yes, I hope so, because fraud is a huge issue with Spotify. An older acquaintance of mine is a professional musician living in Nashville doing commissions. He made a track for a trailer of a video game, but chose not to publish it on Spotify (for reasons I don't know). One of the fans ripped the song from the trailer, uploaded it to Spotify, and was collecting all the royalties. Even though Spotify keeps taking it do…

Sounds fair. He didn't want the money of Spotify's customers so someone else took it.

Re: Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent artists

#106

Post by fnordsensei » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

moftz wrote: post #40

fnordsensei wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty much the default answer to all such questions, unless directly proven to be otherwise. The last thing they would want is for Spotify, or anyone else, to effectively become a record label in their own right.

Plenty of companies will mass upload your music to all of the streaming sites for like $20-30/year which sounds pretty cheap compared to the old days of needing a record label to do anything other than play in bars. Those companies aren't considered record labels, they are distributors which is almost what Spotify is doing. Some of those distributors offer engineering and marketing services too but it still doesn't m…

I'm sure they're fine with the small fish. But with Spotify, Apple, and others who might have the financial muscles to become a threat if given the chance? I'm not so sure.

Re: Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent artists

#107

Post by jakelazaroff » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

nske wrote: post #79

zimpenfish wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does it cost more to Spotify to let the unknown-Joe-Blow-not-signed-to-a-label upload his 4-minute song? Unless I'm mistaken, Spotify would get the new Bieber automagically via an ERN (Electronic Release Notification) delivery which contains asset links, artist, meta, rights information etc. Since that's from a trusted* source, it can be ingested as-is and everyone is happy. For independent uploads, there's alm…

If that was the case they could have just passed some handling fees to the indie artists -that would still be much more reasonable than the fees that the artists would have to pay to a publisher. I think the record companies -still in the process of understanding and adjusting to the new business model that Spotify established- pushed for this, one way or the other, to ensure that Spotify doesn't become a competitor…

Distributing your music isn't really financially burdensome as is. Most distributors cost in the range of $20-$30 per year. Some are even free.

Re: Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent artists

#108

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #87

TeMPOraL wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might actually turn out for the better. Google is a big target; they can't fly under the radar. As for demolishing small businesses, small businesses aren't an universal, unquestionable good. In this particular case, we need less adtech business in general. It's like dumping toxic waste into rivers - not only lots of small polluters aren't better than few big ones, the desirable thing is just having less polluters…

I literally cannot imagine supporting monopolies/oligopolies over healthy competition. There really is more than just an ocean between America and Europe, the culture is so dramatically different. How can one honestly believe that a Google data monopoly is better for privacy and innovation? It seems to fly in the face of every lesson learned by every monopoly in history.

> I literally cannot imagine supporting monopolies/oligopolies over healthy competition.

Implicit in my post was that I don't want to support healthy competition in adtech, or any competition at all. I want this industry to disappear entirely. I have no tears for the small adtech businesses whose market got scooped up by Google; I only hope that by presenting a bigger target, Google's adtech activities will be easier to regulate.

Re: Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent artists

#109

Post by jdlyga » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #14

The submitted article doesn't mention it but my guess at connecting the dots is that it's related to EU Article 13's stringent requirement of "upload filters"[0]. Yes, Spotify's direct uploading "gave opportunity for small artists to share their talent" -- but that same mechanism also made it too easy to upload copyright infringing content. Since Spotify does not have a machine learning AI copyright filter like Youtu…

I've seen plenty of copyright infringing content with videogame music. There's albums of songs claiming to be covers of games like Megaman X, but are actually direct rips of the soundtrack.

Re: Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent artists

#110

Post by zxcb1 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

eternalban wrote: post #23

jasode wrote: post #14

The submitted article doesn't mention it but my guess at connecting the dots is that it's related to EU Article 13's stringent requirement of "upload filters"[0]. Yes, Spotify's direct uploading "gave opportunity for small artists to share their talent" -- but that same mechanism also made it too easy to upload copyright infringing content. Since Spotify does not have a machine learning AI copyright filter like Youtu…

This makes sense up to the point about 'the human version of the "contentid" algorithm'. The record label arrangement makes the record labels the only valid source of original music. The government issues copyrights. Looks like "human" governance needs to catch up, and issuing agencies need to provide "algorithmic" means to verify the copyright status of any content. [without wasting too much energy ..]

If it is possible to generate music with machine learning, it should be possible to decompose a track for comparison with others, melody, arrangement etc.

The dynamics of this would be interesting, when uploading you will be told that your track is infringing, it is too similar to the following tracks by x, y and z :)