We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning • Hacker News Board

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#101

Post by RobertRoberts » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 3:32 AM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #92

whenchamenia wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all the pre-war cars I have been in or around... only steam had the power to throw you back in the seat. It would be interesting to see a modern multifuel interpretation of one. Might be well suited to long runtimes and alternate fuels.

The problem with steam is that external combustion tends to be very fuel inefficient compared to internal combustion. This is true in general, but becomes even more true when you constrain the size and weight of the engine.

I am not sure it's less efficient by default or simply because of lack of R&D into making steam engines better.

I read about a government program in maybe the 70s (oil crisis?) where steam engines were reviewed to replace gas engines. The reason being is that burning fuel at atmospheric pressure means you burn it more cleanly and fully. This sounds like an efficiency balance at some level, certainly a pollution advantage.

A quick search brought up this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_steam_technology#Auto...

https://www.damninteresting.com/the-last-great-steam-car/

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#102

Post by mveety » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 3:38 AM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #92

whenchamenia wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all the pre-war cars I have been in or around... only steam had the power to throw you back in the seat. It would be interesting to see a modern multifuel interpretation of one. Might be well suited to long runtimes and alternate fuels.

The problem with steam is that external combustion tends to be very fuel inefficient compared to internal combustion. This is true in general, but becomes even more true when you constrain the size and weight of the engine.

Doble got pretty close to solving that problem actually. His water-tube boilers were extremely efficient at the time (probably surpassing the contemporary ICEs). He also did some work on a “wet heater” which is a boiler that mixed the fuel with the water, burned the mix, and used the exhaust gas+steam mix for the engine. Doble really pushed the boundaries for steam cars.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#103

Post by Robotbeat » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 3:39 AM UTC

todd8 wrote: post #98

Perhaps we could have had electric vehicles sooner, but we would have needed clean sources of electricity, not coal powered generation, to make a difference.

Many of the largest early sources of electricity were, in fact, hydro power. We could've just kept building more of those until the mid 20th century when we would've pretty much maxed out the rivers (in the US).

And don't forget wind power. Could do that, too. The intermittentness handled in areas by hydro as well. Then nuclear in the mid 20th century.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#104

Post by charlieflowers » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 3:50 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #93

maxxxxx wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think steam engines prototyped a lot of the needed technology like lubrication, manufacturing of precision shafts and heat resistance which then could be applied to the gas engine.

There's an interesting example of technological synergy at the dawn of the steam engine industry. To build an effective steam engine, you need a precisely ground piston and a precisely bored cylinder, otherwise you can't get useful working pressures. Grinding the piston is laborious but straightforward - you just need two centers and a cutting tool to achieve a rotationally symmetrical part. Boring the cylinder is mu…

Bootstrapping

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#105

Post by mveety » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 3:50 AM UTC

smileysteve wrote: post #44

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perhaps a more limiting factor now than then. As the article notes most EVs at the turn of the century had a range of 40-70 miles. The model T of around 1910, ten years later, had a range of about 90. Earlier ICE cars were down nearer EVs. A century ago battery and ICE technology were not that far apart. i.e. both fairly primitive. If electrics had been chosen and had 100 years of continual minor incremental imp…

we're also omitting the steam car. Where the maintenance and dirtiness were their major detractors, refined fuels and new burners solve these. Steam engines can and could have been refilled at any gas station, could run on any multi fuel including biodiesel. They theoretically require less maintenance, no oil changes, no cooling system. They'd also have had greater range and greater top speed (though less acceleratio…

The acceleration is more of a function of the powertrain design in steam cars. If you replace the direct drive drive train with one similar to a ICE car (ie clutch+transmission) you can get the acceleration of a ICE car in a steam car. If you want to keep the direct drive though you would need to have a larger engine and use hook-up and variable cut-off to keep the efficiency of the smaller engine while cruising. Steam engines on the whole are pretty similar to electric motors though in having most or all of your torque from 0 rpm which is why many steam cars were direct drive (I think only the Whites and a few race cars had a conventional layout instead of direct drive).

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#106

Post by inflatableDodo » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 3:51 AM UTC

wmf wrote: post #6

lgleason wrote: post #2

Battery technology has been, and to a certain degree still is the limiting factor for electric cars...and the fact is that gasoline is still a denser form of energy storage than batteries by volume, weight etc.. I'm saying this as a someone who prefers electrics over ICE...

Nuclear is denser than gasoline but we don't run cars on it. There's a lot more to the discussion than the best technology.

Thankfully, Stack Exchange has provided some guidance on these matters.

'Practicality of a thorium-powered, superheated-steam car?' https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/69576/prac...

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#107

Post by nradov » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 3:52 AM UTC

graycat wrote: post #79

smileysteve wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we're also omitting the steam car. Where the maintenance and dirtiness were their major detractors, refined fuels and new burners solve these. Steam engines can and could have been refilled at any gas station, could run on any multi fuel including biodiesel. They theoretically require less maintenance, no oil changes, no cooling system. They'd also have had greater range and greater top speed (though less acceleratio…

IIRC basic thermodynamics shows that ordinary steam engines can't be very efficient. So, don't get good MPG or miles per bucket of coal, or whatever fuel. IIRC the main reason for diesel-electric locomotives for trains and large ships was that it was significantly more efficient than just steam, at least steam with just a boiler and pistons. Of course, really large ships generate steam and then run it through a steam…

Stream engines are no longer used on large ships (except for nuclear powered warships). Merchant ships now use large 2-stroke diesel engines for maximum fuel efficiency.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#108

Post by axaxs » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 4:04 AM UTC

Unpopular opinion, but I truly feel battery powered cars are a dead end. Gas won out over earlier models because of its unique properties, most of which is its easy availability and high energy density. Batteries are heavy, and range limited. A true successor to the ICE must offer the same freedoms afforded. Whether it's super fast charging, nuclear, or a greener fuel, though, I'm not sure.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#109

Post by LeoPanthera » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 4:16 AM UTC

axaxs wrote: post #108

Unpopular opinion, but I truly feel battery powered cars are a dead end. Gas won out over earlier models because of its unique properties, most of which is its easy availability and high energy density. Batteries are heavy, and range limited. A true successor to the ICE must offer the same freedoms afforded. Whether it's super fast charging, nuclear, or a greener fuel, though, I'm not sure.

The 2019 Tesla model S has a range of 370 miles, and I assume that as time passes, more EVs will have a range approaching that figure.

That range is considerably longer than the range of my bladder, so once charging increases in speed, this "problem" simply vanishes. We're already on our way there, the first 250kW charger opened this week, and will add 180 miles of range in 15 minutes.

In fact, it's better than an ICE car, because I can charge at home, and start every single journey with 100% charge.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#110

Post by jhoechtl » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 4:24 AM UTC

Why would we have had electric car from the beginning? Producing an E-car consumes more energy than a car with an internal combustion engine, the milage is a joke. And if electricity is coming from coal power plants it is all but green.