The problem is fairly simple. The actual output of society is produced by a relatively small minority of skilled individuals that are not easily replicable (ie fungibility is largely a myth). We need those people to work a full week operating the machines that actually make all the output we all consume. But why should they do that if nobody else is working? They could just make enough for the small set of people tha…
> The actual output of society is produced by a relatively small minority of skilled individuals that are not easily replicable C'mon man, that's not even remotely true. Even taking the outlier; google, $360,000 revenue generated per employee. Big deal; I'm pretty sure a decent accounting firm creates more value per employee.
Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)
101–110 of 186 posts
Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
That majority of work only accounts for a small portion of value on the margin . You could reduce that work quite a bit with very little overall effect. In fact, this could even increase total product since the unskilled do tend to be heavily liquidity- and risk-constrained, so freeing up some time and effort on their part (without the stress of involuntary unemployment!) would significantly incent them to do such th…
"That majority of work only accounts for a small portion of value on the margin." No, the surpluses yielded by consumers and profits by companies of those people 'doing the work' is vast. If they stopped doing it it would be a nightmare. We don't need resto servers to get English degrees, and then what, exactly? We need someone to do the resto serving. If they 'start their own business', like 'a restaurant' ... well…
Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
the appearance of disconnect thatfrenchguy is talking about is the idea that designing the mold is the actual output of society despite the fact that designing the mold no matter how few people can do it is completely useless without a massive web of interconnected labor that, yes anyone can do but, must done in order for society to actually output anything. It's not a swipe at engineers, it's a swipe at engineers wh…
Not trying to critique anything, but it seems like engine itself is also useless without the rest of the parts.
(It's also a jab at the intellectual bankruptcy of Atlas Shrugged)
Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
That fails to respond to the point that there exists skilled necessary work that armies of unskilled workers can not replace.
And there exists unskilled necessary work that armies of skilled workers can not replace. But even beyond that there's armies of skilled necessary work that skilled workers can not replace either but seem to forget exist. Apple doesn't exist without massive sophisticated logistical support but no one ever points out that the naval architects at Maersk or the welders at their shipyards are one piece of the process tha…
I think this is false. Unskilled work is easy to teach and learn, by definition. All you need is an "army" and the unskilled work can be easily fulfilled.
Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can tell you that I gave my best during my 5 years at the IDF solely because I knew how well I would be paid afterwards if I did well, and I got directly hired at a FAANG. I can say the same about almost anyone I've known during my service across all programming units and beyond. Even the ones who knew they would stay did it for the chance to become Lt. Colonel and then director afterwards as a civilian. As for the…
Of course, today's context is capitalism, so it motivates many. But there are other ways to motivate people. If we're talking about a different , more utopian world, shouldn't we consider those ?
The alternatives that I can think of:
Enjoying the work and similar motivations: This tends to only apply to certain jobs. In addition, just because I'm intrinsically motivated to work on programming, for example, that doesn't mean that I'm motivated to program the things that society wants me to.
A sense of duty: I think this motivation tends to have limitations and is likely hard to achieve consistently without propaganda, nationalism, or a state religion.
Social status: Call me cynical, but I think this only works if someone can use their social status to get the things they want; in which case it doesn't seem that different from capitalism.
Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
"That majority of work only accounts for a small portion of value on the margin." No, the surpluses yielded by consumers and profits by companies of those people 'doing the work' is vast. If they stopped doing it it would be a nightmare. We don't need resto servers to get English degrees, and then what, exactly? We need someone to do the resto serving. If they 'start their own business', like 'a restaurant' ... well…
> we should think about how to make it work better for everyone This is one of the strongest arguments that I can see in favor of more lenient immigration, specifically to larger countries like US and Canada. The number of low-skilled laborers content with the current level of pay will keep decreasing, rendering businesses unsustainable. However, for whatever reasons, other countries are better at producing low skill…
Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The actual output of society is produced by a relatively small minority of skilled individuals that are not easily replicable This speaks personally to me as why tech workers (and multi-generation urbanites) are seen as widely disconnected: being persuaded a small number of people "create value" while forgetting about the people building your stuff, growing your food, extracting your oil (and killing the planet in…
> while forgetting about the people ... You might be reading the comment slightly sideways. My read was that the people you list are from small businesses creating value, and most of the tech workers are creating very little value with a few peakers who do amazing things. > Without the drivers, Uber does not exist. Personal bugbear, there is as yet no evidence that Uber is creating more value than it destroys. It has…
I think this speaks to your own lack of understanding of these jobs. Just because the general goal is set by someone higher up, does not mean that there is not hidden variation for the exact task, as well as a lot of places for 'hidden mediocrity'.
Take cleaning the toilets, for example. The general order given is "clean the toilets". Think, however, about how this task has to be broken down. The small things like cleaning the tap heads, under the rim of the seat, etc. that most people might not explicitly think of without being reminded. The person has to do those small tasks, possibly hundreds of times, while dealing with any unexpected obstacles.
Or take something less unsavory, like baking bread. Anyone who has baked bread understands that, while the general instructions _sound_ simple, there is a lot of complexity that is not accounted for, and a lot of room for variability of skill.
Sure, anyone can train for a month and play X tune on the guitar, but are you going to pay for someone who has spent simply one month training, or someone who can really play the tune that has been playing for years? If they are interchangeable then there needn't be thousands of threads submitted to hacker news about how to hire "10x developers".
> Small businesspeople in particular are a backbone of society in a way that most workers really are not.
The matter of fact is that once a company has been established, it can float for a long time without the business owner contributing much whatsoever. I can think of more than a couple of companies that have changed CEOs three times in the last 5 years, while the actual inputs and outputs of the company remain steady. Direction only matters in a vague sense until you hit bad economic times. The ultimate truth is that 'fungibility' has nothing to do with 'value'.
Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)
#108In principle from a capital stand point, it is always better to have one unemployed person and one over worked person who is terrified of becoming unemployed than two employed people. So reducing workload to increase employment rates is completely unacceptable to those who own society. Wage presure from near full employment is also undesireable to them but must be considered the lesser of two evils and is fairly fudg…
Do you think it's the "terror" that makes that situation prefferable from a "capital stand point"? In times of historically low unemployment, I hardly think the general populace is holding such terror. And even so, why would splitting the work reduce this terror?
Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)
#109In principle from a capital stand point, it is always better to have one unemployed person and one over worked person who is terrified of becoming unemployed than two employed people. So reducing workload to increase employment rates is completely unacceptable to those who own society. Wage presure from near full employment is also undesireable to them but must be considered the lesser of two evils and is fairly fudg…
It’s preferable to have more production, which could be one person working 60 hours or two working 30 hours. Sometimes due to lower switching and communication costs and returns to specialisation/learning by doing 60 hours will be more productive. Sometimes the costs are low and the returns to one person working more hours will be low and it won’t be. If there are fixed costs to employing a single worker this will militate against splitting up the work.
> So reducing workload to increase employment rates is completely unacceptable to those who own society.
Then the German system of Kurzarbeit[1] during economic downturns should be unworkable. It isn’t, it’s just difficult to coordinate.
> Wage presure from near full employment is also undesireable to them but must be considered the lesser of two evils and is fairly fudge-able by changing the definition of employed.
Changing definitions do not affect whether there are too many or too few workers for the production demanded. If there’s an increase in demand for labour some people will work more and some people will come out of unemployment as wages are bid up by the greater demand.
[1]https://pseudoerasmus.com/2014/08/01/anthropology-of-financi...
> In the 2008-9 recession, in response to falling orders, German firms reduced labour utilisation by cutting back work hours rather than by laying off workers. In fact, a whopping 90% of the drop in total labour inputs in the German economy in the Great Recession is to be explained by reduction of hours per worker ! This kind of “labour hoarding” does not normally happen during recessions in other countries, but did happen in Germany this time. This mini-miracle now has people on the centre-left all over the world seeking ways to replicate it in other countries, and has spawned a substantial literature.
> In Germany, firms face restrictions on sacking workers in the first place, but in case of economic difficulties, they can apply to the Federal Employment Agency (Bundesagentur für Arbeit) for “short time” or Kurzarbeit. (Not the same as the 35-hour work week made famous by France, which is a statutory definition of full-time work.) The application entails a protocol for reducing work hours per worker, with the request triggering a process of consultations between the BA, management and works councils inside firms. After an agreement, workers can receive unemployment compensation in proportion to the loss in working hours.
Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not trying to critique anything, but it seems like engine itself is also useless without the rest of the parts.
That is point. The wheels, the engine, the frame, hundreds of other things... You can't point to one part a car and say "that's the bit that actually gets us from point a to point b" (It's also a jab at the intellectual bankruptcy of Atlas Shrugged)