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Self-distancing can help you make better decisions

effectiviology.com

101–110 of 121 posts

Re: Self-distancing can help you make better decisions

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely concur with dual-think/multiple selves, but your example talks about two different selves at two different _times_, not at once as OP assumes.

If I understand correctly, you don't need to think these two (or more?) selves as mutually exclusive. It's just that when in certain contexts, e.g., when one is setting the alarm, this self has the appropriate conditions to be the dominant one (the laziness feeling bundle is not yet present). The other self, the lazy one, is still there, but its voice is not strong enough to overpower the first. By contrast, in the m…

I was looking at it as time causing neurotransmitter changes (leading to sleep) and the resulting self being manipulated due to being in a sleepy state, but I see now how your explanation makes sense too.

Re: Self-distancing can help you make better decisions

#102
post #99
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delirium seems like quite a strange and unusual description of the refined mental states achieved through meditation and the subsequent extinguishing of suffering. Like this dictionary definition of delirium: > an acutely disturbed state of mind characterized by restlessness, illusions, and incoherence, occurring in intoxication, fever, and other disorders. That’s quite the opposite of jhana, nirodha, or nirvana, rig…

Ah, well, that’s a dictionary definition reflecting lay usage of the term (i.e. how people use it in novels and the like), but it’s not the clinical definition. Delirium is a specific medical syndrome ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium ). The simplest way to explain it is a double definition-by-contrast: 1. You’ve got https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome , where people have thoughts and intent b…

I think I see what you're saying. I wonder what you think about the descriptions of the deepening levels of dhyana which do involve "detaching from reality" in some sense. Even the one-pointed concentration needed to approach the first dhyana stage involves tuning out almost all normal perceptions, for example by sitting in a candle-lit room and concentrating fully on the breath in the nostrils. But you keep a strong and stable kind of agency in order to maintain your concentration and to progress in the dhyana series. It seems different from being a "qualia sponge" with a delirious lack of desire or intent. The Wikipedia page for clinical delirium describes distractibility and failure of attention as a primary symptom, whereas deep meditation is almost always described as a result of non-distractability and highly trained attention...

Re: Self-distancing can help you make better decisions

#103

Robert Sapolsky touches on this when discussing the effects of glucocorticoids on the prefrontal cortex. A stressed PFC is not an executive functioning PFC. When we're too close to an issue, we process with our periaqueductal gray (key in pain inhibition) and not with the part of our brain more adept at strategizing. These stress effects on frontal function also make us perseverative—in a rut, set in our ways, runnin…

So those who opt in for parasitic payday loans are doing so under stress, can we say they opt for that loan in similar conditions like you are influenced by alcohol and therefore the contracts are invalid? Many people have ruined themselves with such contracts and it's understood that they had full awareness of what they are getting into and that's why they are liable for all the losses.

Even when contacts are found to be void or voidable due to things like unfair bargaining conditions (such as the inebriation of one party) that doesn't allow that party to escape all consequences of the contract if the sober party was acting in good faith (they were unaware of the condition).

> After all, if that party had no way to know that the drunk or impaired person was not sober, it may have suffered a harm by entering into the contract and performing in good faith despite the other party’s impairment. Thus, it may bring claims sounding in equity (i.e., fairness under the law) called “quasi-contractual claims.” Quasi-contractual claims include things like unjust enrichment, quantum meruit, and others. In essence, they are claims that allow a party to recover when it has, in good faith, performed as though a contract existed, even if it did not or if the contract was void or voidable.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/is-a-contract-valid-if-i-s...

Re: Self-distancing can help you make better decisions

#104
post #25

Tried to get the primary source for the study behind the graphs there, links through to a paywalled study - so I can’t find the sample size, methodologies used, how the study was controlled etc... I’m not disputing anything - I am however cautious of drawing conclusions from articles / posts without proper citations and primary source data. Paywalled study: https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fa0035173 It…

Google Scholar pulls up many PDFs of it: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=18169154965353534...

Re: Self-distancing can help you make better decisions

#105

> self who is analyzing the event is considered to be distinct from the self who experienced it I have hard time following this, how can there be two selfs in a single mind. Is the observer more nobler entity with higher self restraint than the entity being observed who is more emotional and lower self control?

I think the wording should be taken literally. It isn't that there actually are two selves, it's that there are considered to be two.

Obviously on some level you know the selves are one and the same. The idea is: don't apply this knowledge within the thought process about whatever issue you're trying to decide.

In other words, you can integrate / resolve all this knowledge into one cohesive whole (person X needs to decide whether to buy a new car, person X is me --> I need to decide whether to buy a new car; what should I do) or you can block that resolution process and proceed as if it is not yourself (person X needs to decide whether to buy a new car --> what should person X do).

Re: Self-distancing can help you make better decisions

#106
post #65
post #53

Wow. This is something I’ll probably remember for quite some time. It’s intuitive and immediately applicable, and also a dose of awareness I’ve needed recently. However, there’s a catch to this. By distancing yourself like this, it seems like you may act quite rationally - but perhaps too locally rational. You may be a long time Java programmer and just feel incredibly unfulfilled about your day to day work, and you…

I think you speak here to an important potential misunderstanding about self-distancing. It shouldn’t be about eliminating emotions, it should be about seeing them clearly. Even the first example quote about LeBron makes the point... he says he doesn’t want to make an emotional decision... he wants to make a decision that will make him happy . Happy is an emotion too, and a totally valid goal. “Emotional” is really b…

I had considered this but I felt my comment was getting too long, and I still feel pretty opaque about it. And I might need to read the study itself to get a clearer picture - the article didn't quite answer all my questions.

Basically I feel some friction between distance and self-awareness. It seemed that this study was about choices and action, and that this technique is effective when you have a clear picture of what you want.

But to me, that's the catch: knowing the subjective part of finding out what I really want (beyond the immediate sense) is the hardest, and I feel that the critical self-reflection that requires is something you don't want to be distanced for (how can you understand yourself if you're thinking of yourself as someone else? You can understand your patterns of behavior this way, but that's a small piece of the puzzle). Hopefully this gets you to the point where you come out with exactly that set of emotional criteria, and then you can make well-reasoned decisions based on that, possibly using techniques like distancing.

So there's definitely potential for harmony between the two steps. Trouble is, it seems all too easy to skip or cut short that self-awareness part and go right to the decisions, which is usually what is prompting us to go about these efforts in the first place. So certainly, I can see how a technique like this can help people make objectively better decisions, by some objective criteria. But without that clear picture, applying distancing on its own seems like it would make someone even more prone to neglecting their desires, since they are separating themselves from the decision. But this is all conjecture of someone having only read the article with little background in psychology and being prone to making emotional short-term decisions all the time. Sorry for the post length; since I feel so conflicted about it it was hard to really distill my thoughts.

Re: Self-distancing can help you make better decisions

#108

Robert Sapolsky touches on this when discussing the effects of glucocorticoids on the prefrontal cortex. A stressed PFC is not an executive functioning PFC. When we're too close to an issue, we process with our periaqueductal gray (key in pain inhibition) and not with the part of our brain more adept at strategizing. These stress effects on frontal function also make us perseverative—in a rut, set in our ways, runnin…

i have a saying i tell myself every time this happens to me: 'if it's too hard, you're doing it wrong'.

Re: Self-distancing can help you make better decisions

#109
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very difficult area to draw a line on. Your emotions can effect your actions and decisions like anything else. Are we to apply the same logic to how advertising made me feel a certain way leading to a purchase u wouldn't otherwise have made? We are talking measures of degree here but it's a spectrum that is incredibly difficult to nail down. What constitutes being of sound mind?

> Are we to apply the same logic to how advertising made me feel a certain way leading to a purchase u wouldn't otherwise have made? I agree with your point about there being a line, but: YES!! ! Advertising has gone too far and is now squarely behind that line. There is an all out war on our brains going on, and we are losing. Modern advertising and "engagement optimisation" is overwhelmingly insiduous and perniciou…

Lumping all advertising into one box isn't just disingenuous, it's harmful.

Is the farmer advertising his grass-fed, hormone-free beef as a better alternative to what's currently standard grocery store garbage, doing harm?

There's a spectrum to everything, including tech.

Re: Self-distancing can help you make better decisions

#110
post #56

This is called "detachment" in many areas of leadership like the military. I'm sure everyone has personally experienced this, for example when giving advice to others. It's usually very rational and practical because you're not personally and emotionally invested in the events of their life.

“ We’re all scared. You hid in that ditch because you think there’s still hope. But Blithe, the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you’re already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you’ll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function. Without mercy. Without compassion. Without remorse. All war depends upon it. ” — Speirs, Band of Brothers (2001)

Speirs is portrayed as somewhat of a broken man during that part of the show. So there is more context there than the quote might imply.
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