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China’s new ‘social credit system’

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Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#101

Post by raxxorrax »

rayiner wrote: post #98
raxxorrax wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our successful societies originated in a state of constant (public) surveillance Not at all true. Especially in contrast to today. People actually had a lot of privacy on every possible metric. edit: Or asked differently: What was surveilled and through which channels?

People lived in small communities where other people were able to observe them. They were forced to interact with others through church and just basic market transactions (you go to the general store, you don’t order something on amazon). At harvest time everyone worked together to get everything done. The communities were small enough so that other people could detect patterns of antisocial behavior. That alone disc…

> where other people were able to observe them

in a very limited way, with even less tools than today. Scale is a factor but there are a million other factors in "tightly knight communities" that corrected for what you call "antisocial" behavior.

I think you mean policing. The societal worth doesn't need to be established here.

Surveillance is the act of looking for suspicious behavior with the intent to find flaws. That wasn't a requirement to a society. If anything, these ideas lead to witch hunts.

Living closer together is not just mutual surveillance. That would be quite the stretch.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#102

Post by StavrosK »

village-idiot wrote: post #99
StavrosK wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Greeks no longer trust each other Citation super needed here. Nobody trusts the state because it's corrupt, but that hasn't changed in centuries. The main problem Greece has is that everyone puts their own interests above the common good, from littering and double-parking to appropriating state funds.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/232870/article/ekathimerini/news... The highlight is that more than 9/10 Greeks disagreed with the statement that people could be trusted.

I can't find any numbers on this, or the article source, but I'd be surprised if this were new. Cyprus went from 13% trust to 10% trust since 1994 and I bet Greece is along those lines. It's just how Greeks are, so the "no longer" part isn't accurate.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#103

Post by Razengan »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #83
beardedwizard wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that is where the crosswalk is.

That's no different than saying "because the law is the law". If it is possible to cross sufficiently safely without walking to the cross walk why walk to the cross walk?

Normalization of Deviation.

Eventually, everyone would be looking for a chance to cross the road without using a crosswalk = jaywalking, which is exactly what has become the norm in some countries.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#104

Post by Razengan »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #77
rayiner wrote: post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

It's a sickening idea, moreover, I think you're gravely mistaken if you think this is more about 'keeping litter off the streets behaviour', than total, arbitrary control of the citizenry, mostly for political purposes. This is the authoritarians dream: 360, total control of people's lives, right out of a dystopian novel. Second 'organized religion' is a world wide phenom, and is only one of many means by which peopl…

> Second 'organized religion' is a world wide phenom

There are exceptions, including some East Asian countries, I think.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#105

Post by triplesec »

Razengan wrote: post #103
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's no different than saying "because the law is the law". If it is possible to cross sufficiently safely without walking to the cross walk why walk to the cross walk?

Normalization of Deviation. Eventually, everyone would be looking for a chance to cross the road without using a crosswalk = jaywalking, which is exactly what has become the norm in some countries.

And that is not a problem in most countries. Jaywalking as a 'crime' was invented by the car lobby. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#106

Post by Razengan »

triplesec wrote: post #105
Razengan wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normalization of Deviation. Eventually, everyone would be looking for a chance to cross the road without using a crosswalk = jaywalking, which is exactly what has become the norm in some countries.

And that is not a problem in most countries. Jaywalking as a 'crime' was invented by the car lobby. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797

In some countries there are no crosswalks at all because everybody jaywalks.

In some cities, you put your life on the line every time you cross the road.

I am not exaggerating.

Do you really want that to become the norm?

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#107

Post by Razengan »

fuzzbuzz wrote: post #13
bsaul wrote: post #10

The only positive side is that china’s regime is comiting suicide with this system. Seems like nothing was learned from communist russia. Intellectuals will flee, then top scientists, nobody will trade with them anymore, political opponents will be sent to camp, until finally it will all collapse under economical meltdown. My only concern is that civilians don’t pay a too high price in the process.

Norway has just landed some major deals for exporting fish to China. And nor the goverment or the majority of the population seem to bother what China is doing. Money talks, while human rights are censored.

> Money talks, while human rights are censored.

It does seem like the world is becoming/has become a cross-border plutocracy.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#108

Post by village-idiot »

adinobro wrote: post #71
village-idiot wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The historical norm for credit has always been offering up possessions as collateral. You don’t need a complicated credit scoring system, or reliable enforcement mechanisms for debt & fraud, you just sell off the collateral if the customer doesn’t pay the loan. This is exactly the function that pawn shops provide in the West, although their usage has dropped significantly since the introduction of consumer credit.

What is happening in China is that most things are pre-paid or have very low hard credit limits. You often have to pay six months of rent in advance to rent. I know lots of people that have been cut off electricity or phone service but you can get it reconnected in hours or less if you pay the bill. The one nice thing is that there are NO late fees, reconnection fees, overage fees, etc. You just don't get service.

Ouch. I couldn’t summon 6 months of rent, and I’m pretty comfortable economically.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#109

Post by aardshark »

Razengan wrote: post #106
triplesec wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is not a problem in most countries. Jaywalking as a 'crime' was invented by the car lobby. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797

In some countries there are no crosswalks at all because everybody jaywalks. In some cities, you put your life on the line every time you cross the road. I am not exaggerating. Do you really want that to become the norm?

Obviously not. But you are presenting a polarized pair of scenarios which I don't agree are the only possible outcomes. I think we can strive for something in the middle, between chaos and robotic like use of crosswalks.
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